Episode 212

Ginger and Summer’s Podcast for Outlander Episode 301

This podcast is in no way affiliated with the Starz production or Diana Gabaldon. All views expressed are solely our own.

[0.15]

Welcome to the Outlander Podcast, where the men are kilted, the women are winsome, and the whiskey is neat. Welcome to episode 212 of the Outlander Podcast. I am Ginger, and I am Summer, and we are in love with all things Outlander.

[0.36]

Summer Reynolds: So, I don’t know about you Ginger but, ah, where are you podcasting from tonight?

Ginger Wiseman: Don’t even tell me you are podcasting from your bed!

[0.42]

Summer: I am totally in my bed, y’all! I can’t not be touching these Brooklinen sheets!

Ginger: You are not in your bed!

Summer: I so am! I am not kidding you guys! Buying great sheets is an easy way to upgrade your life. And you know how I upgraded my podcasting life? These great sheets. Podcasting from them! Quality sheets make for quality sleep and for quality podcasting. Most high end bedding is marked up by more than 300 percent by the time it reaches the stores but Brooklinen makes quality, luxury sheets and bedding accessible to everyone.

Ginger: I have to agree! Brooklinen cuts out unnecessary markups and manufacturing waste in order to offer exquisite designs and exceptional savings across the collection. And in case you are interested they have versatile colors and patterns that you can mix and match to effortlessly complement any décor. And I know this for a fact because I got all white, which doesn’t seem very exciting but it means it can mix and match with everything else that I own.

Summer: Well, I love my Brooklinen sheets. Try these sheets and I know you will love them too.

Ginger: Brooklinen.com has an exclusive offer, just for our listeners. Get $20 off and free shipping when you use promo code OUTLANDER at www.Brooklinen.com.

Summer: In fact Brooklinen is so confident that you will love your new sheets that they are offering a risk free, 60 night satisfaction guarantee and a life time warranty on all of their sheets and comforters. There is no reason not to give these sheets a try.

Ginger: The only way to get $20 off and free shipping is to use promo code OUTLANDER at www.Brooklinen.com.

Summer: Brooklinen. These are the best sheets ever! So, um, do we have any announcements this week?

[2.34]

Ginger: I mean, the only announcement that I can think of that truly, truly matters is that episode 1 of season 3 aired! And everything else leading up to that was just the lead up to it. I mean, we could go through a list of so and so was on such and such and then there was an article on such and such where so and so said such and such. They were everywhere!

Summer: Yes! Well, before we get into our chat proper, I just wanted to remind you guys that we love connecting with you and one of the best ways is to connect with us and other amazing fans is to join our Facebook community. And you can do that. It is called the Outlander Pod (wink wink nudge nudge) and you can find us at www.OutlanderPod.com /group. You can also find us by searching in Facebook, of course, but this is a short URL we thought would be a little easier. So www.OutlanderPod.com/group and that will take you straight to our group and then you just request to join and there are three screening questions. They are very easy. I will tell you what they are. One is: “Who wrote the books?”; the second one is: “Where does the story, at least originally, take place?”; and the third one I recently changed to something like “How did you find our group?”. Something like that. So, yea, it is very easy to join. We add people as quickly as possible. And we want you to be there as quickly as possible, because we want you to join us and do chats with us and live videos with us and after shows, which we will talk about maybe later tonight. We want you guys to be there and take part in this amazing community. Okay, I think that is enough pre-show chat. I think we have something to discuss, Summer.

[4.30]

Ginger: It has been so long. I don’t know how we even get into this.

Summer: Me either!

Ginger: We’ve done 63 chapters with read-along and we have no theme. On to our episode discussions!

Summer: Yea, doesn’t work.

Ginger: No, it isn’t as good. So, we will just say, and now, onto our discussion of episode 301 entitled “The Battle Joined”.

Summer: So, first of all, actually, before we talk about the chapter, episode, I have to say something. Or remind people. No, actually, before even that. First of all, Summer, holy moly! Are we ready to get into season 3? I think we are ready.

(S) I feel like it has already happened. I’ve dived in.

(G)And now you are waiting for me to dive in. I didn’t take any notes at comic-con, at the premier. I took all the notes from this week, for this recording. I didn’t necessarily forget anything so when I re-watched it, it wasn’t like “Oh, that’s right, that happened!”, like I forgot something, but I definitely was not focusing on stuff like that at comic-con. At comic-con, I was watching it, I was doing my best to enjoy it, and not having to worry about remembering anything to comment on it, necessarily. And for someone like me, and I think Summer too, even though we are very different, we both agree that we like to watch it, at least the first time, alone. Right, Sum?

Ginger: For sure! And I, you know, yes, alone, but, for sure, not with you.

(laughing)

Summer: Thank you so much. I love you too! And, in case you are just joining us, yes, we have a certain type of banter, and we lovingly tease each other. We are sisters and it took us almost a year to say that.

Ginger: I wasn’t ashamed.

Summer: No, I was not ashamed. If I was ashamed I wouldn’t do a show with you. I am just slowly coming out of my shell. This has been a really busy summer for us, but we have had a really amazing time. So, we are definitely ready. I was just to mention, or remind people, in case you are just joining us and have not ever listened to our show before, we were at comic-con and we were very fortunate to be at the panel. They premiered episode one of season three. And so, all I am saying is that I didn’t take any notes and I didn’t try to remember things because I knew that we would actually be covering it later on. I didn’t want my experience, at that point, I wanted to truly enjoy it and not worry about remembering stuff and writing things down. So, with that, let’s get a move on.

[7.22]

Summer: Sum, music at the intro.

Ginger: yes.

Summer: Battle music and bagpipes.

Ginger: Oh, I thought you were talking about music at the intro of us going into the episode discussion. And, I’m like, sure! I love music!

Summer: You have anything? What do you have?

Ginger: No, I just think we should maybe keep using our read-a-long music.

Summer: That would be funny. You know what, I think we should, but we should wait until it is appropriate.

Ginger: Ugh, fine!

Summer: I am not anti-it. I love it! But I think it is very swashbuckling and very exciting and very appropriate for later on in the season. So, that is the music-ish. Did you hear anything different? Is does that sound kinda familiar?

Ginger: I thought it, it felt to me, it didn’t have, like, the Frenchy-ness of season 2, and it didn’t have the, but it wasn’t quite as, not even vanilla, but like Scotland vanilla as the first season. Because the first season was very “hey, we are in Scotland, here are some bagpipes and some drums”. So, I felt like it was a call-back to season 1 but it was still more, if that makes sense. I felt like it was, because you know how they change the opening song every year, a little bit. Like last year it had French. And then, there was more drums. So, I thought it was a call-back to, you know, here we are back in Scotland, but it was more. I don’t know what the more was, but it was more.

[9.04]

Summer: And then we get to the title card, which is showing just at the time I mentioned, that’s the music I was listening to it. Not the intro of the entire song, I’m talking about as the song ends and it goes into the title card, the music that is right there.

Ginger: I wasn’t listening to that, I was looking at all the dead bodies.

Summer: Oh gosh, well, this was before the bodies. This is the title card which was a ravaged saltire blowing in the wind. And then they pan out, or pan wider, or pan left or right, but after they go away from the flag, then you see all the bodies. So, as Summer said, as the shot got wider, it is just after the battle of Culloden. This thing that has been looming over our hearts and minds for two years, actually more than two years, but as far as the series goes, two seasons at least. That’s a better way to put it. Sidebar: there is a lot of back and forth, not only with time, going back and forth from the 18th to the 20th centuries, but also within the 18th century. Jamie is remembering and taking us back to see this battle through his memory. I will keep my comments to follow along the sequence as presented in the episode. I did not try to change their order at all. In case I sound like a dude, that’s because it is quite early in the morning for us to be recording but you do what you got to do. For us, that meant getting up early-ish to record. So, I am not caffeinated but I am very excited about the topic, so I’ll be fine. Summer is caffeinated, and, uh, caffeinated and lubricated.

Ginger: What?

Summer: Metaphorically lubricated!

(laughing)

Ginger: Ok. Could we not ever refer to me as lubricated ever again!

Summer: So, anyway, just that, Ginger, you sound like you went down an octave or so, well, that’s why. Scanning the many bodies left on the field, what an expanse! It’s horrific! But, let’s not forget this is just one battle in one war. This has happened all throughout history and watching something like this with some of your favorite characters, humanizes it more, which I think is important. Even though Outlander and Voyager were not written, actually, excuse me, there was no Culloden scene written in the books, so it is totally not book related. It is totally screen. So, seeing something like this, an adaptation, or this fleshed out battle of carnage, where characters you have grown to love for the last two seasons, but really three to four years, and for some of us, 25 years, or almost 20 years in my case, when you see that played out, see war, see battles, it humanizes it and I think it needs to be humanized. Not that we all want to see gore, and it wasn’t that gory but war has been around as long as humans have been around, and war is going on right now in the world and unfortunately right now it is so common, and we hear about it in the news so much, but it is always over there, out there, over that border, it is so easy to, necessarily so, to brush it off, not that it is not important but, you know, it is so far away, what can I do? And I know a lot of people donate or volunteer, so when you see some of your favorite characters over this long battle like the last half-ish of season two and now completely decimated in season three in the first episode, it is maybe an unintended consequence, but I think an important side effect, that we see that every single battle all over the world has stories like this. Not of time travel but has stories of people who are friends of others, people who are fathers, people who have lost people, and sometimes it is very easy to be swept away with the romance and beauty of Scotland and the storyline we have carried in our hearts for so long but this is one of those points, it isn’t even a war movie, you know what I mean? That hit me, not the first time, but on these rewatches. I don’t want to stay on that for too long, I just thought it was an important thing to note, because I don’t know if that was an intention, but for me it is definitely an important side-effect. So, we see Jamie. He is out of it. He is only barely conscious. The troops are scavenging the bodies of the dead and bayonetting any they find alive.

[13.48]

Ginger: See, I don’t know how they didn’t bayonet Jamie. He looked just as alive as that kid that got bayonetted. And he moved!

Summer: And he was on a mountain.

Ginger: of bodies!

Summer: He moved, but he wasn’t moving fast. Maybe they didn’t get him because

Ginger: He turned his whole head!

Summer: He is also covered by a good sized body. So, maybe they just figured

Ginger: You want to talk about this good sized body?

Summer: Oh, I am going to get to that good sized body! So, Jamie is done. He is at his end. He sent Claire away and planned on dying, and he did not succeed. I am going to hammer this home this entire episode because even when he gets to Lallybroch at the end he is, he doesn’t, he thinks he may be in heaven or the afterlife or something at first because it is so surreal and he is ill and wounded, feverish probably, he is just not all there. He’s seeing things and not convinced he was actually sent home. But, yea, I will definitely come back to that. So, imagine this man who has given up the love of his life and his child because there is no way to go forward with them, it is not safe, so we understand as readers and as watchers, why, even though it breaks our hearts. But, he had one, I’m going to say something that is funny but kinda mean, you had one job, Jamie! (laughing)  And that was to get killed. He tried! You cannot blame him, he tried!

Ginger: That has been his one job for the entire book series, and he has failed!

Summer: Well, no, but this is the one time that he tried.

Ginger: But, I am just saying, as the character, there have been many times he should have died.

Summer: Oh, all the time!

Ginger: And quite rightly should have died and he doesn’t die, so I think if he has any flaw in his character it is that he really bad at dying!

Summer: So, he isn’t exactly like him but he reminds of, I forget the guy’s name, I am so embarrassed, Captain so and so from Torchwood. Captain Jack. OMG, another hottie! I know he swings the other way but, dude, who cares! First of all, who cares. Second of all, he’s hot. Third of all, he can sing. Dancing doesn’t really interest me so much but he can sing. Oh Lordy! And he is Scottish! He’s a triple whammy, quadruple threat. I don’t know. In my life at least.

Ginger: Ok, so the soundtrack of the first, I’d say quarter to a half of this episode was wheezy Jamie breath.

Summer: Yes. And flashback to the battle. And Jamie is running with the sword. I should say, people are running with swords. It is the battle. Or the beginning, I should say. And shooting, fighting, mayhem, we see flashes of Jamie and BJR, and what really went down but nothing in detail yet. What is about to come will answer so many questions for the book readers and I’ve had this question, and a lot of others have too, on my mind for almost 20 years.

Ginger: They just couldn’t let us go without one more “Mark me”. Anyone who was following that drinking game last year, this is the last one. I hope you killed your drink.

Summer: What I wrote was “BPC, go away”. He’s still, I get it, it is not a still, it’s the next moment, a continuation of the same day we leave on the end of season 2 is that day. It was the day of the battle. And so it makes sense, when I say he still thinks they are going to win? Well, yea, because it is the same day. It is not a year later.

(S) It hasn’t been a year for him.

Summer: Exactly. Just us. I just noticed that BPC, I don’t want to write it all out so I make as many abbreviations and initialisms as I can and that, acronyms and all of that, BPC stands for Bonnie Prince Charlie. And I just realized that he has the same initials as Bullet Proof Coffee.

Ginger: Only he is incredibly less effective.

Summer: Have you tried Bullet Proof Coffee?

Ginger: I have.

Summer: Oh, so you like it?

Ginger: I don’t hate it. I don’t know that I can tell the difference but we are totally side barring.

Summer: It is not side barring. It is BPC. So, we are back to Jamie’s present time. It begins to snow, very lightly, and Jamie is still lying under BJR. Now, if I recall correctly, that was the weather on the day as described. I’ve read many articles, I’ve read historical accounts, read some books, or parts of books that discuss that day and part of the big thing about maybe not doing it that day, and the moor, was the weather. Remember they had the night march the night before. The troops are just like, the double, triple, quadruple whammy, it’s like, really? You want to have these troops who just marched twice, marched out, didn’t do the thing they were going to do, and then marched all the way back, you are going to have those people fight, and it was like sleet, it was awful weather and they were freezing. It was like the worst of all these possible conditions. It was the worst of everything, and they were tired, hungry, cold and exhausted. So, see the sleet, or I should say the light snow, was kind of a little eerie, because they did so well with capturing, again, I wasn’t there so I don’t know, capturing what I would imagine the battle would have been like, as well as the weather. That is a little eerie. Did anything surprise you, Summer, about the depiction of the battle?

Ginger: Having sat through, not sat, stood through that 360 video at Culloden, I was surprised that Ron Moore didn’t have more Scottish soldiers shot in the eye because in the video there was a remarkable amount of Scottish soldiers that they depicted being shot directly in the eye. I didn’t know the English had that many sharpshooters and that they could shoot people that were running at them, so well, aimed, to get them right in the eyeball. Lots of people in the Culloden video were shot in the eyeball. So, there weren’t enough people shot in the eyeball for me.

Summer: Speaking of eyeball, did anything surprise you other than that? For example, were you surprised that Rupert was still alive?

[20.20]

Ginger: Well, I mean, he died in the books so much earlier. So, they needed a familiar face to take Jamie to the crofters hut, farmhouse. They needed a familiar face to be part of that thing, so he was logistically the one left. So, that would make sense.

Summer: what about the depiction of Black Jack Randall and Jamie?

Ginger: Can I just say that was the most romantic sword fighting I have ever seen?

Summer: In general, having him laying on him, did that literally jump out of the books to your brain or what?

Ginger: I mean, it was straight out of the books, because it is what happened in the books, so it was not unexpected. But this is part of what I love about this series, I love having those moments of yay, that is just like the book, or, they did it exactly right, or I love finding those moments where it is verbatim from the book.

Summer: Yes, and also I like when they have things that are not in the book, whatever, it is an adaptation, you know it is going to happen, but my two favorites are when it is something directly and you are like “gasp, my gosh, that just happened” and then it is something that’s either from the book or possibly from the book but off the page, right? So, the whole BJR thing, we get zero from Culloden. We get zero. We get Jamie waking up with a sore nose, it itches or something like that, with BJR on him. We get nothing more! Nadda! I’m not complaining. I’m just saying, that’s all ya get! So here to have this flesh and fact. It wasn’t a very long battle, I think like 15 minutes or 20 minutes or something, so it wasn’t a very long battle, they do not show us 15 minutes of battle. They show us 15 or 20 minutes of battlefield and back and forth and skimming the battlefield, scanning it but not of an active battle and we don’t need that much time, we just need to see a few key things. And they set that really well. They let us know that the government was going to win. As we knew. And I have to say, even though he was only there for a hot second, and I think it happened, this part I do remember, and I did it again this week when I was watching it, when Murtagh showed up on the screen at comic-con, I went “ahhh!” (laughing) I was like “Duncan!”

Ginger: Thank God you were not sitting next to me. You would have annoyed the living crap out of me if you had done that.

Summer: But, oh gosh, Murtagh, Murtagh, Murtagh! So excited! Okay, so, when the government troops begin to fire it’s just, and this is very, okay maybe no eyeballs, this is very similar to what the 360 experience at Culloden museum, battlefield, memorial place, experience was like. And that is that when the government troops begin to fire, it is just a wave of men going down. They are almost literally almost like sitting ducks.

Ginger: It seems to me a lot like what I would imagine would happen if we took an army from today and went back to another time period, or you know, with people fighting with rocks and sticks and then we have modern warfare going on our side and they had legitimately no chance. None. And it was just the futility of it. Just watching it and you are like, they are doing it anyway! The thing that stuck with me this entire episode when we were in the 18th century portion was just how badass these guys were. They were badass to the very end. It’s like they had a glimmer of hope that perhaps they could win. There was a point they were just like “F this guys, I am not going down, I am not running, I am going down standing on my feet and I’m going to die like a man”. That was something from the beginning of the episode all the way through to the end of the 18th century portion of this episode. I was just struck by the sheer badass nature of the Scots depicted.

[24.38]

Summer: Totally! Up to and including facing their own death. Not just in the battle but when it was time to face being shot, yep, let’s go! I was, like, F!

Ginger: yea!

Summer: uh, dude! And that was rough too, but we will get to that. So, the moment that Summer was talking about, the moment when Jamie sees BJR. It is like kismet. IT is almost, not all of it, a lot of it is in slo-mo, and I love the shot when Tobias, I mean BJR, I‘m just going to say Tobias, when Tobias Menzies, with that wig and that red coat uniform, and all of this war going on in the background, we see him, and the camera focuses on, we still see kind of a wide shot, plenty in the background, but the camera focuses on him and his reaction as he sees Jamie. And then, as they start that fight, as Summer said, it was almost sexual.

Ginger: Forget the fight! Running to each other, across the moor, across the fighting bodies. It was like at the airport scene when you see two lovers that have been separated for months and they are just running towards each other, like “ah, I’ve missed you”.

Summer: It was like a date, or a dance with death and they were not going to miss it. It was like, we have, this is war and in war there are very few rules. During the battle, right? During the battle there are very few rules. Afterwards, not at that point maybe, but there are gentleman agreements, which the government didn’t do very well, by the way, obviously. They raped and pillaged the highlands into the lowlands, so, we are not going to talk about that but, I think, when all sides will agree that during the actual battle, it’s every man for himself. Non-combatants shouldn’t be abused and definitely not civilians. But, in the battle, dude, if you are fighting, you are there. So, during this part, in the music, I didn’t notice any themes here. Just like, I don’t want to call it battle music but I don’t know what else to call it, but I swear there was an organ.

Ginger: chuckle

Summer: no, like an organ you play, Summer.

Ginger: I know. Ginger, technically, they are all organs you can play. I just think all BJR themes should include organs.

Summer: So, as their fight continues, after the camera goes back to Jamie, during the fight, in the snow, we hear the druid theme. And I put a big ol’ heart next to that. That was like “gasp”, and, oh gosh,  I wrote I wonder what that could harken. The battle is mostly over, it is just the two of them. At least what we see. Maybe the dance of the druids is the dance of Jamie and BJR.

Ginger: Now, is this the portion where everyone is dead around them?

Summer: Mostly.

Ginger: and they are fighting each other.

Summer: yes.

Ginger: Because we kind of discussed this after comic-con, this was weird and kind of strange and then I don’t remember who said it, it might have been Sarah, it might have been Mandy, they thought that was his fever addled remembrance of how it went down.

Summer: the battle? The fight?

Ginger: Yea, the fight between the two of them. Because when it all of a sudden went that romantic lighting and they were surrounded by the dead bodies, and it is just the two of them …

Summer: The whole thing, because the show starts with Jamie, with BJR on top of Jamie, so everything we see at the battle, everything is Jamie’s memory.

Ginger: That particular moment was very, was, because if you look back at the rest of the things he was remembering, some of the things looked like they were in the real time, like it was not just his remembrance but that is what it was, because before that moment, and I don’t know if it is because of more blood loss or more fever or he is getting sicker but the things he is remembering become more dream-like.

Summer: Yea, I think I get what you are talking about.It is like a background of smog. It was like this brownish

Ginger: No, it was like a sunset kind of coloring.

Summer: Like golden.

Ginger: Yea, during the point when they stab each other.

Summer: Yea. It definitely wasn’t the same quality as the rest of it, I do remember that.

Ginger: Yea.

Summer: But, what do you think about that music? Obviously, Jamie wasn’t there for the dance of the druids, so he doesn’t know that music, but what do you think about the choice of that music under them? It kind of goes to support the whole dance theme, right?

Summer: That was the dance of death. They were definitely circling each other.

Ginger: And they both knew only one of them was coming out of it, or both of them are dying. And the award of the worst death noises goes to Tobias Menzies because when he got stabbed he was like “ugh”, ”ugh”, “arrgh”.

Summer: For some reason, this I don’t remember from the comic-con premier, and that was when Tobias finally gets that death stab, is it the one he gets in the stomach that gets him?

Ginger: Isn’t it the side? The kidney area?

Summer: So, after that he makes a noise and he falls on Jamie, right?

Ginger: He slowly approaches him like, I want to hug you, and then I’m going to fall on you, and then I die.

Summer: I think he was going to try to stab him some more, I think, that is the only thing that makes sense, yea, I don’t know that he had a plan to die on top of Jamie. But, the sound he made, not just when he was stabbed, but when he fell on Jamie, or fell at him, there was a sound and it was a, not a lovers sigh, but I would have to go back and listen but there was a sound, and it wasn’t the sound he made when he got stabbed.

Ginger: yea.

Summer: And I was like “oh”

Ginger: I’m sure you are right.

Summer: Huh. Well. Yea. Knowing how he feels about Jamie, there. Oh, and I wrote this too, speaking of BJR, “the look on his face as he falls on Jamie, is almost heartbroken”. I don’t know if he is sad that he is dying, sad that he didn’t take Jamie with him, maybe he thinks he did. I don’t know. Maybe he lost his work of art to work on, I don’t know. But the look on his face when he starts to fall on Jamie is heartbreaking.

Ginger: Maybe he is thinking “that bitch was right! This is my death day!”.

Summer: Oh, I see what you are saying. I’m glad you brought that up because I totally forgot about that. The seer.

Ginger: Yea.

Summer: Clair, the Cassandra. So, back to Jamie, in and out of consciousness. He sees a rabbit, or a hare. Now, someone at our panel at comic-con just happened to have a handbook of Celtic symbolism, it was really specific, and they remarked upon this. No, I did not go back and listen. But I did try to look some stuff up and I will read from what I found. I have just two sources. One is www.WhatIsMySpiritAnimal.com and, we’ll share all links in the share notes. You know that Easter bunny that sneaks around with goodies? Well, Celtic myths tell us about the goddess Oestre, from whom Easter gets its name, a moon goddess associated with the reborn earth and fertility. Each full moon Oestre became a hare and the rabbit was her sacred animal. We know from recorded history that it was taboo at one time to eat this creature among the followers of this deity. Celtic tradition held that rabbit was also good for divinatory purposes. They read the patterns of rabbit tracks, and observed mating rituals, watching for signs. This gives rabbit the additional symbolism  of a prognosticator. And then, from a University of Michigan site, and this one is well referenced, movements of smaller animals, just birds and rabbits, have been interpreted to divine the future. So, we have the hare as prognosticator and the hare as divining the future. Now, we don’t know the “what” yet, like “what” it is divining but, my guess, and I could be completely wrong, but my best guess is that seeing a hare means that he ain’t gonna die. Because why have something that is divinatory or a prognosticator or sees the future if you are not going to have a future.

[33.30]

Ginger: True!

Summer: That was my best guess. I don’t think it was what the lady at our panel said, but that was what I could find in a somewhat short notice. So, then, he has a vision of Claire walking in a shift, or nightgown, at night, across the moor, in the light snow, toward him. This is my favorite way to hear their theme. Their theme soars underneath all of this and it is in strings. Now if you guys have heard, I am totally blanking on, um, oh Strauss, I could be wrong, no, I think I am wrong, it is a 20th century composer, I am blanking on the composer, but if you guys have heard Adagio for Strings, which I am not helping you much with because there is a lot of Adagio for Strings and I am not telling you the composer, but it is a 20th century composer known for, I’m going to have to think about it. I went to his grave in Vienna to take a picture. He has a very unique headstone. It is like building blocks stacked on top of each other. I’m totally spacing on it but if you have heard this piece Adagio for Strings it can make you weep. That’s what I was reminded of. I’ll have to remember to tell that to Baer the next time we are able to speak with him. That was amazing! It is the most beautiful, and, am I correct, Summer, when she starts the words that are actually Rupert’s “Are you alive”? Right?

Ginger: She does. And it is indicative of just how out of it he is that, even for one second, he could ever confuse Claire with Rupert.

Summer: No kidding!

Ginger: Two completely different body types!

Summer: But kind of like Jamie, although not all the way like Jamie, Rupert also survived. He survived much longer than he did in the book. So, that was a choice they made. I think that hasn’t bothered book fans. They wanted to keep someone with him until about this point, so that was an interesting and cool choice. Still. Still. Still. Jamie just wants to die. He came there to die. He gave up Claire, his life, and the only reason was because there was no future or safety for them there, and yet, he doesn’t die. This is heartbreaking, as I have said already. So then we see as Rupert whisks Jamie away, we see the piece of amber with the dragonfly in it left behind on the battlefield.

Ginger: That was a nice little bow tied up, giving us how she found it in the 60s in the museum.

Summer: Flash to Claire in the 1940s. And they are house hunting, Claire and Frank, so this reminds me, and I did say this at the panel, this reminded me of as they were looking, they didn’t spend as much in it, in the looking part, but they were going through the rooms and the way she was walking and looking like, even her similar clothing, I know it wasn’t the same coat, but even her hair, there was so much that was similar, it reminded me of them going to Leoch, back before they go through the stones. And that brought up, again, during the panel, this mirroring or harkening back, right, harkening back to earlier episodes and also mirroring experiences, like this one of a walk through and another walk through in Leoch, but also mirroring what is going on with Jamie in a symbolic way with what is going on with Claire, with the two centuries that are different, in the 18th and the 20th. The home is beautiful, you gotta admit that, it is big! And I laughed at Tobias’ southern accent, did you like that?

Ginger: “I’m gonna wrestle up some vittles!”

Summer: That’s funny! Then we see Claire with a baby bump! It is getting more and more real, baby Bree is on her way. Book readers will remember the trouble Claire has, not just with the oven, in fact that may not be in the books, but it was the heater, I believe, in the books. But …

Ginger: All I know is I was waiting for that stove to explode.

Summer: Blow up? Yea! So, this is more in line and more symbolic with her being in the 20th century in general. She is just not jiving. She has a hard time. Yes, she lasts for 20 years but she has a very hard time readapting. And, that poor oven is a good, her experiences with other men, and that oven, so even in her home where she should feel safest, she is not having an easy adaptation. It totally made me laugh, when a pretty darn pregnant Claire is driving firewood in her trunk.

(Laughing)

Summer: I mean, if you don’t have a truck!

Ginger: I was personally affronted by the level of misogyny she was experiencing in the 20th century. It started with this woman on the street, and her conversation with her, and how much it was almost worse in the 20th century than it was in the 18th century. I don’t know why that … It seems to me that there should have been some sort of progression from the 18th century to the 20th century and it felt like everything had gone way backwards, comparatively.

Summer: If you listen to our interview with Maggie Craig, I believe, who wrote “Damn Rebel Bitches”, the women of the ’45, she, some of the larger, even though she was talking about women involved in the battle who helped support, or even fight, you know, in different ways were involved with the ’45, one of her take-aways or discussion that she threads throughout her book is that the women of that time, even though it was 200 years ago plus, the women of that time, in Scotland specifically, seemed to have it, not that life was easy, by any means but it was, you had, I don’t know about  more legal rights. It just seemed that they had it a little bit better perhaps than even women in England. So, it was very specific, and I know she didn’t compare every culture at that time in history, but it is especially telling as what you are talking about, comparing it to the 1940s. Yea. So, it is a very interesting comparison and one of the things, this might be why you reacted, this line, I actually have a different take. I’m not saying. Her neighbor is definitely of that time and of those beliefs, but her neighbor appreciated what Claire was saying. The part where she was inside cooking at the stove, excuse me, at the fire, she was like “You are lucky Claire. You won’t find another one like Frank” She wasn’t being, she wasn’t throwing shade, ..

Ginger: No, she wasn’t throwing shade but she also didn’t believe her either, a little bit. She was like, I don’t know, are you sure he is going to like that?

Summer: But one of the things she said that I think Claire, I don’t think Claire in the 18th century would have had no problem with this, it was understood as part of the life because no one survived alone. In the 18th century it was much more of a communal living, right, so you have family, you definitely live with your family until, if you are a woman, you marry and go join another family but, typically, you are with a community. You have a farm, or you are merchant and you have a store. Some thing but you are never alone. You typically are not living alone. That is much more, it has happened throughout history, yes, but it is a much more modern adaptation or allowance, if you will. As far as being able to sustain oneself because, you know, back in the day there were exceptions, there are always exceptions but especially women. Women aren’t living alone, typically, you know, all throughout history. Not typically. But one of the things her neighbor said when she was coming up to help her with the firewood and Claire is like “oh no, I can manage” and I don’t think Claire meant anything bad by that. I think Claire didn’t want her to feel obligated. But what her neighbor said that hit me and I was like “oh my gosh” Claire would never, ever, I don’t think ever, have said that to someone in the 18th century. If she was working on something like this, she would never have said “oh I can manage”, unless she was being pissy with somebody, like being pissy with Jamie or somebody. She wouldn’t have said “oh I can manage”. It was like the wool waulking, right? Everything you do, pretty much as a community, it takes a village, everyone takes part in it, and she wouldn’t have, it was part of that climate, part of that culture, she wouldn’t have, I don’t believe, she wouldn’t have responded in that way. Here she is in the 20th century and what does she say, she doesn’t say it rudely but she says to her neighbor “oh I can manage” and her neighbor says “of course you can manage. Why should you when you can help”.

[42.41]

Ginger: It’s true, but then think about it. I’m positive that the climate, not the climate that makes it sound like I am talking about weather, the conditions in Boston in the 40s were very isolating for Claire. She was a stranger in a strange country, again, granted there isn’t a language barrier, but it is very isolating. The only person she really knows there, at this time, is her husband, and he is gone all day. So, she is home, by herself, for a lot of the time and she probably doesn’t get out and meet her neighbors. This may have been the first time she has met this lady, and this was the intro the woman had to come up with an excuse to introduce herself, or coming over to talk to her.

Summer: I agree with what you are saying. And, to me, that is further, I don’t want to say evidence, but further example of what I was trying to say, and maybe that is the whole point, this situation never would have, now when she first went back to Scotland as an Outlander, right, especially at Leoch and around, before Jamie came onboard, even with Jamie, she was, people gave her side eye, all over, Claire gets a lot of side eye. There is no, you can’t, that just happens, she always will, or at least in Scotland she always did. And in France she kind of did. Again, she was always an Outlander. And here, yes, she’s still an Outlander but the difference is, in the time period, as far as the work, and yes, the climate, her surroundings, are different, she is still an outsider, but they are different. I just think that this thing would not have happened. I think if anything, because when she was an outsider, an Outlander, in Scotland when she first went back, people were not going to help her. You know? People avoided her. Until she got Jamie, basically until she got to Lallybroch. After the witch trial, she didn’t have a really solid relationship with anyone other than Jamie. And then she started to become part of Jamie’s family, truly. Or extended family. So, maybe you can’t really count the first half of that, but from Lallybroch on she was an accepted part of the community there. And anyone trying to help her would not have been shooed away. I guess that is what I am trying to say. Depends on where you are trying to compare with. That is correct. But, yea, when she was in Boston she is new, she is an outsider, she is a loner, by design, because that is what, if you are a housewife and you stayed home all day, I mean, apparently you go get the, you do the shopping and get the wood, but yea, I do see that, I don’t think, I guess I didn’t come all the way clear with was, I am comparing it to the time at Lallybroch. And that is a completely different time. She is not an outsider, technically she is but she is accepted, so she is not anymore. She is not treated like an outsider. Everyone helps everyone else, yes, they each have their own rules and their own jobs but when it comes time to bring the crops in, when it comes time to do the planting, comes time to do the laundry, you step up and help out wherever help is needed because that is survival of the community. Whereas here, she is an outsider and she is not yet accepted, or at least she doesn’t know enough, know people yet, and there is a woman who is trying to help her and Claire is like oh no no, thanks, I can manage.

Ginger: She’s also never really been comfortable with women.

Summer: That is true. The closest she has ever been to a woman is Jenny.

Ginger: Also, can we just talk about how lucky Claire is because if I had had a random thought like, hey, maybe I’ll just cook in my fireplace, the odds are, either, I would not know how to open the flue, so the smoke would just be back in my house, or

Summer: it would just be decorative.

Ginger: and then I would burn my house down. So, she has the luck of anything. Any maybe things were different in the 40s. There was no such thing as decorative fireplaces. But that is dangerous to me.

[47.10]

Summer: huh, yea. So, then we are swept back to the 18th century. Rupert had carried Jamie to a farmhouse where other wounded and survivors were. There is a little bit of a scene setting there. It is not too long and then we go back to the 20th. Claire is heavily pregnant and they are going on an outing. They are going to meet with some of Frank’s colleagues. This was the first truly uncomfortable place where I felt uncomfortable. I was like “oh, bite your tongue, bite your tongue”. So, they are going to meet some of Frank’s colleagues and Claire, she is not butting in, she doesn’t interrupt anyone, she does enter the conversation but she doesn’t interrupt, they are discussing the likelihood of certain candidates to go all the way and get the nomination or become president. And she, how dare she, mentions that she has read an article. Oh my gosh! And she shares,” oh well I read in the Globe that …” and she goes on to express what she had read and her opinion of this candidate. And all I’m gonna say is this was not easy scene to watch. And I think Tobias did very well playing Frank here. Frank is like, Frank knows, first of all, knows his wife, don’t mess but also, like oh Lord, these are my employers. He’s probably feeling both like, please don’t push her, regarding Claire, and, oh my gosh honey, please keep it tight. Keep it close.

Ginger: Can we just take a moment and appreciate how this is the calmest I have ever seen Claire, and I would say this is Claire at her most restrained. Because I don’t think anyone else would have gotten the reaction that they got from her. If they had come at her like this, because I think she held way back! Like that is not what I am used to seeing when I see Claire. I am used to Claire not holding back and, to her own detriment not holding back, and getting everyone killed around her. So, the fact that Frank didn’t lose his job and all these other things that could and happened and didn’t, I was just like, wow, she is really restrained, and maybe that is why I got even more pissed off at this dude.

Summer: Who was clearly a patronizing asshole. Well, you know how one of the things that is in all the books, that is not a spoiler there, is Claire and her mouth. Right? Claire just can’t, and I’m not saying she needs to just shut up and listen, sometimes yes, I’m not saying she needs to obey Jamie, no, I’m not talking about some anti-feminist manifesto thing, what I am trying to say is that sometimes or the best example is when she first goes through she has zero clue about stuff and she does not understand this culture. And she disobeys Jamie, in her mind she didn’t disobey him because he wasn’t going to tell her anything so she didn’t take it as a command she took it as a that is what he would like, and also she was trying to get back to Frank so why would I, and she had an ulterior motive, a very pure motive, she was still trying to get back to the 20th century. But, when she leaves that little glade, glen, whatever, and ends up getting taken, in the book she falls into a stream and is rescued by a redcoat, but when she is taken, and then they have to rescue her, mount a rescue and then afterwards Jamie spanks/beats her, when that happens, that is one of the best examples of her not listening. Now, she learns. Yes, I am blaming her but I do understand she had a pure motive and wasn’t trying to get anyone hurt or in trouble. And she didn’t understand the times, truly. However, that is the first time we see how Claire not listening, or how much Claire talking, in that case wasn’t talking but there are plenty of other times when she just opens her mouth like when they are walking through the harbor at the beginning of season 2, she makes them an enemy because she can’t keep her mouth shut. Now, I know her intentions are good, they are typically pure, as a healer or to get to safety or something like that. But, I agree with you, this is interesting that she is not flying off the handle more, however, you could still argue that it is still Claire’s mouth. Now, nothing bad happened in the end, and yes, he kept his job because she did keep her cool compared to normally what she might say or how she might erupt. But Claire still couldn’t keep her mouth shut. Now she was much tamer than we are used to seeing her, right?

Ginger: Well, she doesn’t usually feel the room out first.

Summer: That’s true.

Ginger: And I felt like she was feeling the room out with her comments where usually she just barrels on straight ahead, devil may care, screw ya’ll, this is how I feel. But in this instance, and maybe it was because she knew already going in that Frank’s job was on the line.

Summer: I am sure that is why she was tempered. But, I still think if she was being, and I know she is not, a “good 40s wife” she would not have said anything. She felt this compunction, I don’t think it was to show off at all but she was telling her opinion and backing it up with just something she had read so it wasn’t coming from her “oh it’s coming from my female brain”. No, well, I read this and they seemed to think that blah blah blah so actually she kind of went out of her way to not post it, or pose it, as her own female opinion. Right? She tried quoting, or substantiating what she was saying on an article, experts in that field, or people who write about that field, people who makes those observations, what they would know and what they would think, and she was still verbally beat up. So, yea, no, I still think it is Claire because she spoke but it was definitely tempered because of her reaction and also because she didn’t say what she thought. She acceded enough to the time period to say she had read something and she based her belief on that or agreed with it. And she was trying to say “well I read …” so that she wasn’t just saying “oh, well, I am of the opinion that…”. You know what I mean? But it is still Claire, she can’t shut up, but I recognize by her not erupting and by her trying to say it wasn’t my feminine opinion that she is trying to be as gentle with this as she can. That was definitely a huge change. And then we are taken back to the 18th century. Jamie asks, as he is lying in this farmhouse, he asks the question we have all been wondering …

[54.10]

Ginger:Where is Murtagh? ? With this question and with the answer given, we all were given a little bit of hope. It is a glimmer, it is all I have, I will hold it tight and let it grow.

Summer: Then, the government troops arrive. Enter Lord Melton. This seals their fate, as if there was any chance, or any hope left, there is now none. They are doomed. And Lord Melton enters. Love it! I know we saw William Grey, young William Grey at the end of season 2, but when we see Lord Melton, oh Summer, I just think of, his name is Hal, by the way, and he has a wife named Minnie, it is not a spoiler, it is just a name, I just think forward to, oh my gosh, these people who are with us for so long make me a get a tear break. Okay, so I love it, he says that Cumberland has said that all the survivors are to be shot. And they have one hour to prepare themselves for death. And they will also be given an opportunity to write a letter to loved ones.

Ginger: Yea, and this was again where I was reminded of how badass they were, because in the face of certain death none of them claimed to be anything other than traitors.

Summer: He had a line, I know it was Rupert because he ended it with “traitors all”. Okay, so back to the 20th century. Dude, Claire is gonna pop! She is getting bigger and bigger with each one and she is preparing breakfast. And she sees a bird at the window and it looks like a sparrow. And there is also some symbolism there. Now, I believe, if it wasn’t the same person, though I think it was, at our panel at comic-con but someone also spoke to this symbolism, which I did not remember and did not remark on. So, it is out of my head. So, please, if you guys know this or remember it, let us know. So, what I did get was from the same University of Michigan site was that birds are usually used to represent prophetic knowledge, bloodshed and skill. In an omen, the bird can be either the message or the messenger. So, Frank is having his breakfast, I am not sure if Claire was eating and he was talking about how he enjoys waking up to the smell of bacon and eggs and Claire mentions that she wants to apply for citizenship. And one of Frank’s responses “why change something that works perfectly well?”  And this is very reminiscent of the attitude of his colleagues, that is how I felt. Now, one of the reasons Claire says she likes the country is that it is young, eager and constantly looking forward to the future. And she is carrying someone who belongs or was created in the past, and her love is in the past, so it was just interesting. This was one of those, maybe not mirroring, but themes we are going to see throughout this episode is this the old and the new, lots of death and rebirth here, in literal and metaphorical senses. Now, the reason Claire wants to apply for citizenship is she never truly had a home until Jamie and now that is gone so this is her first attempt to make something solid with Frank in their new country. And so, it is funny here, and so Frank didn’t say no right away. It wasn’t until she was like, look a new beginning, new family, and Frank seemed like he was almost like he was kind of eating it up, and then when he bent over to kiss her or touch her belly, she shifted, and that turned him.

Ginger: You know, to his credit, at least he could admit that he was being a dick about it. And that it wasn’t about citizenship, it was about their interaction together. But I would like to go back a second. And ask if you were as concerned about the milk that she poured into the pitcher as I was. Mostly because she poured it, but then I got really concerned that she was going to forget about the pitcher of milk which was clearly not good and not pour it out. I tracked that pitcher the entire scene because I was so concerned that somebody was going to drink really old, spoiled milk. Nobody drank it, she did eventually put it in the sink but I tracked it because I was real concerned. I have a real phobia about drinking spoiled milk. It grosses me out, the idea of it, so watching her do that, it consumed me so I had to watch the scene a couple of times to get everything else because that was all I tracking.

Summer: I thought it was interesting that Frank is kind of intrigued, maybe not interested but, oh, what is that for, and he doesn’t say no right away. It is only when she mentions

Ginger: It is only when she pulls away that he clearly makes it retaliatory, like it is a retaliation for that.

Summer: Absolutely!

Ginger: He says no, we don’t need it, I have residency through my work and she says it is not about that and he says, no it’s not. Like I said, bully for him to admitting that he as being retaliatory and being a dick and then just continuing to be like

Summer: Yea, this is not related to Jamie in any way. This is about her completely trying to establish a new home. I believe her wanting to establish citizenship is a positive for Frank, it is a positive for Briana, it is a positive of her trying to keep her word to him, that they are going to go forward and raise a family together. So, yes, he may have been being a dick about it when she pulled away but he lost this chance. That was a Claire win. It was not a Claire loss. Even though she didn’t get what she wanted, that was a Frank loss. That was one time that Frank, and I am not saying that he can’t be a dick in other places, but that was one time that Frank lost. He could have pulled away and they could have had the conversation later. He did it out of spite and against himself. He shot himself in the foot there, because she, regardless of the pull away, she was, for many other reasons, but a lot of them included trying to solidify and start over fresh with a new place, a new country, and with building her little family. So, I think, not only was he a dick but it was a Frank loss and a Claire win, even though she didn’t get exactly what she wanted. It shows, I think, that she was trying to go forward. So, then, I think it was during this fight, I could be wrong, maybe it was later, but Frank wants to talk and he wants to know when she will come back from the past. And then they have a fight. And you can see in front of your eyes, you see Tobias, I can’t get around, no matter what it comes back around to Tobias, it is Tobias’ acting that does it but you see the destruction of his world. You see in his face, how it crumbles, how it falls, you see him withdraw, again.

[1.01.20]

Ginger: And then we see the destruction of the vase.

Summer: Was it a vase or a crystal goblet thingy? It was green.

Ginger: It was something that was glass or porcelain.

Summer: But I do think Tobias is magic and I will say I think he is the best, most intelligent actor that the show has.

Ginger: The “best most”?

Summer: He is the best most intelligent, but it’s, um, I put a comma in there. “the best, most attractive actor on the show”.

Ginger: Attractive? That is too? Wow Ginger!

Summer: The best, most intelligent actor on the show. And then, as, and I could have missed it because I didn’t listen for it, I only remarked on it when it actually jumped out at me, but right here, as his face is falling, as he is withdrawing in front of your eyes, we hear Frank’s theme. So sad. So sad, this dude. And then we are back to the 18th century. And we learn that no quarter was given, even younger boys are shot as well. And then someone, I think it was Rupert, Rupert goes over to Jamie and, was it Rupert?, I think he goes to Jamie, oh, that’s right, it is someone else that was about to die.

Ginger: Rupert did go and talk to him but there was another guy …

Summer: and Jamie just says “let it be”. And he says that Claire is gone, and that is what he says. He is waiting to die. He just wants to go. So, by not showing the shootings, I think of all these people, it makes it almost worse. So, it is a very difficult sequence to watch, or hear even. These characters we have grown to love, meeting their end, and the fact that they know they are meeting their end. So, it is not like in battle where, even if you expect to die, you don’t know how it is going to happen. Are you going to be shot? Are you going to be sliced down? Are you going to lose an arm? You can have an expectation to not know how it happens is still unknown but to know in the next ten minutes you are going to be walked out there and shot, that is coming face to face. And as this man who was chatting, and I did not get his name, I think he was Gordon but I could be wrong, the man who was chatting with Jamie, it is his turn to go and be shot, more in line with Jamie expecting to die, says “I’ll see ya again soon”. And then Rupert and Jamie chat. And, whew, this one was heart …

Ginger: It was not green!

Summer: Oh, the vase?

Ginger: Yea, I just rewatched it. It moves really fast but it did not look green.

Summer: Rupert and Jamie. This one is hard to talk about, I think, so Rupert says that they are looking forward to seeing Angus again. And Rupert says he won’t forgive Jamie for what he did to Dougal but he also won’t die hating him for it and then, humorous to the end, Rupert, like the badass highlander he is, gives his name to the roll keeper, Rupert Thomas Alexander McKenzie …

Ginger: and I like that then he said “Keep up with me, I plan on taking this two at a time” or whatever, you know “I plan on making this quick so keep up with me”

Summer: During this scene with the camera straight on Jamie’s face, the music is again Jamie and Claire’s theme.

Ginger: His gunshot made me sad.

Summer: Whew!

Ginger: The rest of them, they affected me, but …

Summer: But they were not fun. It was sad, but that one got me.

Ginger: that was the one thing during the viewing at comic-con made me kind of glisten around the eyeballs. My eyeballs were sweating a little bit.

Summer: Listen, I cried like, I didn’t bawl, but I cried like 17 different times. So, final changes are about to happen. And those include leaving this world and entering this world. Those themes of birth and rebirth that I mentioned. So, in the 20th century, the camera goes to Frank’s face, who is on the couch, and we see, or we hear first, and then we see a clock, again, another reference to the time, and then dripping water in a faucet. Now, I believe I read it, I think it was in Dragonfly but I could be wrong, there is a, and it could be in other cultures too, but there is a highland, not tradition but superstition, that dripping water symbolizes something and it is not good.

Ginger: It’s death!

Summer: I think so. Or that someone was going to die, yea. So it’s, you have all these, no one, people who are shot, no one of our main people, Claire, Frank, Jamie, etc are dying so, you are like, what does that mean

Ginger: or is it indicative of her waters breaking?

Summer: I mean, I didn’t think about that, but maybe, but think about it

Ginger: How British was she? “My waters have broken”

Summer: If you think about it, even though Jamie lives, Frank lives, Claire lives, but there is still a lot of death going on as far as Claire and Frank and Briana are, well, Claire and Frank are starting new so, I don’t know, I hate to say rebirth but it is definitely the death of her old life and the start of something new, whether it is good or not, that is a whole other discussion. But it is new. And Jamie, even though he didn’t die, you could say he symbolically died at Culloden or afterward, and he is not physically dying though he wanted to and he is given another chance at living, at life, and that’s, in a sense, a new beginning. And that, in a sense, is a rebirth. So you have this theme all throughout. Frank, this got me all in the feels Summer, with this sound of the clock, and the dripping water, Frank can’t sleep, obviously, he gets up ...

Ginger: This was like the epitome of every sleepless night I’ve ever had. It was like every noise, you hear everything. It was the water dripping, it was the clock or it was a car driving down the street. I mean, it is like, every little tiny noise if you already can’t sleep is made larger and more disruptive. Little tiny things you would never notice. But, when you can’t sleep and you are lying in bed …

[1.08.00]

Summer: and so, he gets up because he can’t sleep and you know things are on his mind, that is probably why he can’t sleep. Frank gets up and begins to pen a letter. This is also a new beginning. Now book readers are freaking out right now because what Frank is starting, whew, what Frank is starting …

Ginger: Calm down.

Summer: What Frank is starting is a correspondence that will continue for years and affect the rest of the entire series. I definitely had tears here.

Ginger: It does that and also ensures that there is a box full of stuff about Jamie for Briana and Roger to find in the 60s.

Summer: So, this is what he writes, and I wouldn’t be surprised, and no I didn’t check, I would not be surprised if this, I don’t know that we ever see the first, or hear the first, because we never see this in the book, this is off-the-page, and that is why it is so chilling in a fabulous way. This is what he writes: “ Dear Reverend, I find myself in need of your assistance once more. I hope you will indulge me in undertaking some research regarding an 18th century highlander who fought in the battle of Culloden. His name was James Frasier”. That is all we get because the daughter of that very highlander is about to make herself known. Claire’s water has broken and they are off to the hospital. So, think about this, do you think Frank has finally allowed for the tiniest space in his mind that Claire’s story is true? Before, he hadn’t asked for this assistance. Was he allowing Claire to have this story, this fantasy, so she didn’t have to tell him the truth about she left him and met someone else. I think, for the show, that this is the point that if not finally allowing for the possibility that Claire’s story may be true that it was growing in him and it all became too much. The historian in him had to know. So, what do you think? Do you think he finally got curious about it, or do you think that this is the point, seeing this is the night soon after that big fight they had, for her to have this much rage, or this much emotion, it has to be, because you are talking, she was like two or three months pregnant when she went through the stones, she still had a flat belly so maybe up to three, but this has been at least five months. Right? Maybe six months that she has been pregnant. And so, yes, she is hormonal and she is emotional and all that but the original kind of coming back from wherever she was has, not gone, but definitely weaned, a bit. Worn away a bit. Do you think that he totally believed her or was allowing her that space and then, now, is like, F it, I am going to go ask about it.

Ginger: I don’t know. I think he is curious. He wants to know the man he is up against. You know what I mean? Who he is competing with. I think he wants to know more about him but I think that also, I feel like, he is the one who told her not to look back.

Summer: Ah, you are right!

Ginger: So, I feel like in doing that he, she has never been allowed to have any real closure. In fact, she is nothing but an open wound, especially now that Jamie’s daughter is about to be born. So, she is going to have a constant reminder in her face and no closure on said subject because she did as she promised and did not look back. So, I think that, in a way, he is doing the thing that she could not because, she couldn’t without breaking her promise to him because she said “I won’t look back” and she hasn’t. So then he is like “fine, I need to look back” because …

Summer: So Jamie ostensibly is about to die. Frank’s past with Claire, he now knows, is dead. They can go together in a different way but no longer can they bridge their past. Frank hides what he had been writing when Claire comes into the room and, this is important, it is not something she knows he is doing. I’ll say this and then I’ll stop on this correspondence thing, for now. Remember that Frank is a historian. What his specialty is, what time in history, what area, and remember this is a long game. To recap. For death: we have the survivors in the farmhouse after Culloden. Jamie is about to join them along with other non-ambulatory wounded, and Claire and Frank’s past is dead. Birth: Bree is coming to town. A new correspondence begins. A new life in the colonies. Wait for it people, or the U.S., and a new life as a wee family. Back to the farmhouse. Lord Melton comes to the farmhouse, or comes back inside, and at the name Frasier, he stops.

[1.12.38]

Ginger: I want you to know that when Jamie says his full name like that, that is what I do too.

Summer: After you say his name?

Ginger: No, when Jamie says his full name, I have the exact same reaction.

Summer: You stop and turn around?

Ginger: I stop and turn around and am like, oh, oh yea, say it, you like that?

Summer: So, I wrote, oh no, not this. He is thinking, oh crap, my duty forbids me from executing this man. And I have to say, great casting for Lord Melton, by the way. And, I think it was well done, but that is pretty much for everything and we find out that Red Jamie is going to be safe. Now, he mentions John Grey, another very important name, and I squeed a little bit in my seat! I admit. I can’t believe this is all coming to life in front of my eyes. Oh, holy crap! So Grey, you will remember, we met him as William Grey, was the young 16 year old that Jamie allowed to live when he had come upon their encampment and tried to kill him near Corrieyairack in the end of season 2. Jamie is heartbreaking. Again, he’s given up, he was supposed to die, he is dying, let him go, he is thinking, and here is someone who is wanting to chat about the 16 year old he let live. And he says, “either shoot me, or go away”.

(laughing)

Ginger: Exactly!

Summer: We learn that young William Grey is John William Grey is Lord Melton’s brother. And Jamie, this whole time, is like “ugh, don’t, don’t”. And Lord Melton is like I cannot take your life without dishonoring my family and Jamie says, regarding not shooting him, “I will not tell if you don’t”.

(laughing)

Ginger: I know, that was so awesome!

Summer: More about the badass highlanders, come on now, so Lord Melton’s plan is to take a wagon full of hay and put Jamie in it, to have the wagon take him home to Lallybroch. That way, he can, you know, with a clear conscience not kill him and give him this fresh start and his family’s honor is saved and he is not necessarily, other than not shooting him, which is a big thing, he is not taking extra steps to save his life, as far as not giving him medical attention and not having his wounds tended, he is not adding to it but he is getting him away from there so that, not only is he not killed, but he is doing it as secretly as possible so that others don’t start asking questions.

Ginger: and I like that he is like “he’s probably not going to make it but at least it won’t be because I did anything”

Summer: Jamie wants to die. He does not want to go into a rebirth. He wants to fulfill his plan and the plan was to die. So, as the hay wagon trots toward Lallybroch the music has hints of the dance of the druids, well, okay, more than a hint, and then it turns back into the love theme. And that, whew, that got me tear jerky as well. And then we are back to the 20th century and Clair is in labor. But the way she is treated, oh my gosh, but according to many people, we didn’t chat about it at the screening, at the premier, because obviously it is dark and we are all watching it but afterwards a few of us discussed it who had seen it and at the panel it also came up, according to many people, people who were either alive during then or their parents have told them about how it was then, it was extremely realistically portrayed. As far as how a woman would have been treated if she had tried to speak up for herself in that moment.

Ginger: Dude, if anyone ever hears me say that I wish I had lived during the 40s, please shoot me! Because everything about the 40s has done nothing but piss me off! It is just hateful!

Summer: It is a very much romanticized period of time, especially the warriors, but it is definitely not as progressive as it is today. So, I did feel bad for Frank during this moment because he had to learn about her first baby in the presence of others and he was like “wait, what? This happened again? Happened before?” So, this dude has the same attitude, the guy who was interviewing them or talking to her, has the same attitude, I’m sorry, the doctor, as Frank’s colleague. Frank is ushered out, Claire is taken to delivery and she is forced into twilight sleep. Jamie, we go back to him, wakes up and has arrived at Lallybroch. Jenny and Ian greet him. She says you have come home to Lallybroch, and his scene ends there. I just have to say that, I did have the same thought after the premier as I did while rewatching it a few times, it is so funny and not because of Ian’s leg but they both had to be on their tippy toes to look over the side of the wagon. That is one tall wagon!

Ginger: Well, she is kinda short though.

Summer: It is comedic, from the outside. They could have faked it. I don’t know. Maybe it is very realistic. Maybe so. When they were looking down at him, it wasn’t funny, but them trying to get a wee keek over the edge, that was kinda funny. In the 20th century, again, Claire wakes up after giving birth and in a scene touchingly reminiscent of episode 207, Faith, again, this mirroring of somewhat similar episodes or at least similar scenes in other episodes. Almost, I wouldn’t be surprised if they are the same lines, we hear the same words “where is my baby?” And not just the words but in her voice, if you hear that same, ugh, that same, it is not a whine but that same desperation.

Ginger: I know but it was almost the exact same situation, where they didn’t put her out, during Faith, but I am fairly sure that she was in and out of hallucinatory consciousness, which is the same state she was in when they put her out in the twilight thing and then this episode she was not conscious of the things going on during the birth of her children.

[1.18.53]

Summer: Only, this time, it is different. They bring her a very healthy baby girl. That is a big baby!

Ginger: A very large baby!

Summer: Or, should I say, Frank brings the baby in. Baby Bree’s loud cry when Frank hands her to her mom is a sign of life, something forthright and lively. The full opposite of Faith. So, while it is happiness to see baby Bree brought to her Mom, it is also that very, it is a sad mirroring of Faith because Jamie wasn’t there. I mean there was the whole duel thing but if she had gone into early labor and the baby hadn’t died, like it wasn’t an emergency thing, as far as life/death, that could have been Mother Hildegarde bringing her Faith, so that, and I didn’t think …

Ginger: Well, to be honest, Faith is all she brought her.

Summer: I’m saying this could have been a completely different scenario.

Ginger: I know.

Summer: It couldn’t have been because she needed to go back, so, yea. This tableau seems to give Claire and Frank a fresh start. Claire aims to make this family work, knowing she can’t go back and Frank’s theme plays under his lines, quote “it’s going to be alright, I promise”

Ginger: Can we talk about how, I want to know what happened when she was asleep, after they took the baby from her body. First, I don’t even understand the mechanics of how you can have a woman give birth passed out that is not a C-section, that whole, that boggles my brain. But also I want to know who did her hair! Because she was so well put together when she came out of it, is that the nurses, the female nurses job in this hospital? To make sure the women look pretty when their husbands show up with the babies?

Summer: You never know!

Ginger: I’m just curious. But, again, I’m sorry, having had a baby that was not a C-section, I had to be an active participant, so I am very confused as how this baby erupted from her body.

Summer: Go read about twilight sleep and delivery.

Ginger: I don’t want to, you make it sound scary.

Summer: Well, actually, it was scary so, it wasn’t just that they were out during the birth but the after-effects of, well, man, this is going to get into a whole other subject. Basically, what it did was it put the woman out so they didn’t have to hear her screams. Okay, it didn’t make the birth easier, maybe on the dudes delivering it, but she was not an active participant. And twilight sleep was invented or came up with by, of course, a dude, and then, it started in Germany and then it came to the U.S., if I am not mistaken. But then it spread and became the thing to do and they started to see that women who were not having the delivery experience were not, it is not that they weren’t maternal, it was the effects of the drugs on their body and the type of drug it was. It was developed and it was something that was promoted as good for women because she didn’t have to go through that pain, it was a two-fer. You get to say that the woman gets to rest and on the other hand you don’t have the woman screaming and crying in pain. Maybe they did scream and cry in pain, because either it didn’t work or because it didn’t take away all their pain, but a lot of women didn’t remember the experience. And that is kinda what they were trying to tout, like you don’t have to have this painful experience. So, we have this tableau of Claire, Frank and baby Bree, and then the nurse has to ruin the scene by asking how did she get the red hair?

Ginger: Seriously, though, rude!

Summer: And I wrote, end tableau, because it breaks there. So, for episode 1 season 3, what did you think?

Ginger: I thought it was good. I enjoyed it. I thought I enjoyed it. I am going to watch it again and again.

Summer: We wouldn’t do anything else other than this but it has been, you guys have been very great, people in our group, people on social media, you guys have been awesome because you knew we had seen it at the premier and, pretty much, we didn’t have a lot of people asking us questions about it because you knew we couldn’t answer them or speak about it. But even those of you, we have gotten a few questions, and even if the questions are not that spoilery, we didn’t want to say anything because we wanted to respect what they did. That was huge! That was the first time Outlander has ever shown a premier at comic-con so we want them to continue, so that is why we didn’t open up about it. Anyway, we are so thankful that we can talk about it endlessly now and we hope you guys will join us to continue the conversation. Please come to our Facebook group. This is where we have special events set aside so we have episode discussions and or, you know, chatter about the episode, anything what you guys want, episode by episode, over the season. And it is where you can get a little spoilery, there is also a Voyager thread where you can talk about the book if you want, and so, even if you haven’t read the book, that is totally fine, but we have a special section set aside for discussion of each episode individually, and also we do our live after show, which we hope you will join us, it will be, at least to start with, in the group. And so the easiest way to get there is on Facebook, at OutlanderPod.com/group. So, Summer, any more last minute things before we wrap up?

Ginger: I’m looking forward to next week! I feel like I have been waiting for the second episode for a year!

Summer: Episode 2 is probably going to be more exciting for us than episode one was for us only because we had seen it and then we got to see it again and prep for this episode. So it was amazing and we are so happy to finally be able to talk to you guys about it and hear from you, and episode 2 from here on out we are all newbies to this, so thank you, as always, so much for joining us. We are ecstatic and cannot wait until our next episode.

[1.25.20]

(music)

Summer: Thank you to our generous partner Zencaster who offers high fidelity podcasting. Check out Zencaster and use coupon code Outlander20 for 20% off three months or 20% off for a year. Connect with us. Visit our website at www.OutlanderPod.com . Find us on www.Facebook.com/OutlanderPod We would love for you to join our Facebook community at www.OutlanderPod.com/group. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at OutlanderPod.

Transcribed by Diana L Jones (Twitter @dianaJo56753770)