Episode 302 - "Surrender"

The Official Outlander Podcast Episode 302 - Surrender

Scotch of the week: Tamdhu

Toni: Hi everyone. We’re doing this a little differently this year. You won’t be able to hear the episode in the background of the podcast, so in order to sync up the show with what we’re saying, you should pause now and hit play as soon as the main titles start. [0:13]

[0:16] Ronald: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I’m Ronald D. Moore, executive producer and developer of the Outlander television series. I’m here to welcome you to the podcast for episode 302. Surrender. And joined this week by my fellow executive producers Toni Graphia

[0:31] Toni: Hi.

[0:32] Ronald: And Matt Roberts

[0:34] Matt: Hello

[0:35] Ronald: Alright guys, well, this is, uh, now we’re definitely, we’re out of the premiere into the meat of the season. This is sort of an interesting episode, where we really start doing the aggressive kind of back and forth between the two story lines that you’ll see dominate the first half of the season. Spending time in Claire’s world with Frank and also sort of advancing the Jamie story. And remember overall when we were looking at the board of the season, it seemed kind of clear in the writer’s room right away that the Jamie story was sort of the one that was going to provide the, sort of the tempo. You know, Jamie’s story kind of broke down kind of quickly into discreet episodes, by the nature of the way Diana had laid it out in the book. And it just seemed like, ‘Oh, well, this is an episode, that’s an episode, that’s an episode’, and then we kind of went back and said, ‘Alright, how do we develop the Claire story along the line?’

So, let’s start with the Claire story. Where did the Claire, or actually we’re on the Jamie story first, right? In the episode, where do we start here? Are we starting in Lallybroch? Or are we starting with Claire? I don’t even remember.

[1:37] Toni: Umm.(laughing)

[1:39] Ronald: None of us has watched this episode in months.

[1:40] Matt: Yeah

[1:41] Ronald: Let’s just watch it with the audience

[1:42] Toni: Let’s watch it.

[1:43] Matt: Probably about six months

[1:44] Ronald: I know, this feels like a million years ago

[1:45] Matt: Yeah

Silence

[1:49] Ronald: Ahh, there we go.

[1:50] Matt: So we start at Lallybroch

[1:51] Toni: Lallybroch

[1:54] Ronald: How different is this from the book version?

[1:57] Toni: This is different from the book version. In the book version it’s Jamie’s gun that gets fired during Jenny’s birth, and we decided to give the gun to the boys, since there was an Act of Proscription that had forbid firearms. We just didn’t think Jamie would risk having a gun, especially since he was off living in the cave, and we thought it’d be cool if the, to start with the boys. That they’ve got this gun, they’ve hidden it from their parents and..

[2:27] Matt: Boys being boys

[2:28] Toni: (laughing) Boys being boys. They’re very tempted by the gun.

[2:32] Ronald: Yeah, I remember us reworking that storyline several times, right? We have the gun and later in the episode when, you know, Jamie and the baby, and how that was all staged, but

[2:42] Toni: Yes

[2:43] Ronald: But I remember this went through quite a bit of change until we landed on this version.

[2:48] Toni: Well, we were interested in showing, um, the last time we saw Fergus he was sent away from the battle of Culloden to go deliver the deed for Lallybroch, and I think, it was our feeling that he was probably always haunted by, that he didn’t get to take place in this battle. Because if you remember, at Prestonpans, he snuck in, and got into the fighting, as a little kid. And so, he wanted very much to be a part of Culloden but Jamie sent him away and he’s always been, felt like he should have been there, and we wanted to show that here.

[3:22] Matt: This is also one of those things where, differences from the book and the show, is, our sets are not exactly what’s described in the book.

[3:35] Toni: Yeah

[3:36] Matt: So when you physically start to block out a scene, especially the Jamie with the baby, you kind of realize it can’t happen exactly like the book.

[3:47] Toni: Yeah, and also, there was that really cool building near Lallybroch, the dovecote, where we kept passing it and going, ‘What is this crazy building here?

[3:54] Matt: The uh, the “doockit.”

[3:56] Toni: The “doockit” that’s how they pronounce it, right.

[3:57] Ronald: I thought it was dovecote (pronounced “dove coat.”)

[3:58] Toni: It’s spelled like dove coat

[3:58] Ronald: That’s the way it’s spelled, but they don’t pronounce it

[4:01] Matt: They don’t pronounce it that way

[4:02] Toni: But, they kept saying, David Brown, I remember, saying this is where they kept doves and we were like, ‘This is so cool, we have to use it for something.’ So we ended up thinking, well that would be a great place to hide the gun, in one of the dove nests.

[4:13] Matt: This is kind of a created thing as well, our redcoats. We had kind of brought them up a little bit in the story.

[4:23] Ronald: Yeah, there was no, the Sargeant, right? He’s a, or Corporal?

[4:27] Matt: Yep

[4:28] Ronald: He’s a complete creation of the tv show

[4:29] Matt: Yeah, just to, you know, enhance what happened in the period, the clearances and, to bring it into Lallybroch.

[4:37] Toni: Right, we chose to bring in Corporal McGregor, and we thought it was interesting to make him a Scot, because we rarely see that. But amongst the Redcoats there were Lowland Scots that actually fought against their fellow Scots. And so, we thought that was an interesting choice, to make him a Scot, and that gave Fergus and Jamie, and the rest ammunition to call him a traitor.

[5:00] Ronald: Mm hmm

[5:00] Toni: Cause he was even a worse villain in a way than the regular English Redcoats.

Silence

[5:10] Matt: Now I think in the book Ian does get taken away, right? And so we’re still sort of tracking with that.

[5:15] Toni: Yes

Silence

[5:25] Toni: And we haven’t seen Jamie, of course yet.

[5:28] Ronald: Right

[5:28] Toni: Since the end of the Culloden episode.

[5:30] Ronald: Yeah

Silence

[5:34] Ronald: I have vague memories, did we ever talk about seeing more of his recovery in between episodes? Were we gonna start with him more recuperating here, or was I gonna tag that onto the end of mine?

[5:43] Matt: Well, we had a big discussion from one to two, is, do we show Jamie landing in Lallybroch…

[5:52] Ronald: Yeah

[5:52] Matt: ...or do we cut off and not show that...

[5:55] Ronald: Oh, that’s what it was

[5:55] Matt: ...in one, and then it’s a surprise here?

[5:58] Ronald: Yeah

[5:58] Matt: I think that was probably the biggest debate between us is like, ‘What do we do here?’

[6:03] Ronald: Right. Because we did talk about, yeah, him maybe arriving in this episode

[6:07] Matt: Yeah he arrived in (unintelligible--turtle tuck?)

[6:08] Ronald: We show him as kind of the wilderness man here.

Silence

[6:27] Toni: That’s the introduction of Mary McNab as well...

[6:30] Matt: Yep

[6:31] Toni: ...who, as we know will play an interesting role in this episode.

[6:34] Ronald: Yeah, she was referred to before, but we didn’t show her.

[6:37] Toni: Right. We hadn’t met her, uh, we’re playing that she replaced Mrs. Crook who had passed away.

[6:42] Ronald: Right. Right.

Silence

[6:45] Ronald: Yeah, we just saw Rabbie’s father, originally.

[6:47] Toni: That’s right. He had an abusive father

[6:48] Ronald: Yeah

[6:49] Toni: And this is the wife, and the father’s dead now and the wife has come to work at Lallybroch and brought her son Rabbie. Who’s friends with Fergus and young Jamie.

Silence

[7:13] Ronald: Who’s that shadowy figure? It’s a sasquatch!

(laughter)

[7:16] Ronald: It’s the closest thing we have. It’s Jamie Fraser. I really liked the whole wild man Jamie character. And, as I recall in earlier drafts there was more dialogue from Jamie throughout the early sequences with him and with his sister and Fergus. And I remember an note I had was to make him almost nonverbal through big stretches of this

[7:39] Toni: Yes

[7:40] Ronald: Like he had drifted so far away from civilization and away from the people in his world that he really had just kind of withdrawn into himself. So I like this really kind of silent man of the woods Jamie character that we made here.

[7:53] Toni: Right

[7:54] Matt: Ooh, we did go around and around about the stag

[7:58] Ronald: Oh yeah

[7:58] Toni: Mm hmm

[7:58] Matt: About...there was a big sequence that was planned for, scripted and planned for where, you know, he cuts the heart out and

[8:09] Toni: Yeah

[8:09] Ronald: He was gonna chase it, wasn’t he, gonna wound it?

[8:10] Matt: Chase, yeah

[8:11] Toni: Well, he was gonna chase it

[8:12] Matt: He was gonna wound it and then he was gonna chase it through the woods, right?

[8:14] Toni: And he was gonna say, and in the book it’s a Nordic, a Norse…

[8:18] Ronald: A Norse poem, yeah.

[8:20] Toni: ...prayer that he says. And we actually had the words translated into Norse, and we didn’t end up using it because we did want to just have him be...

[8:29] Ronald: Right

[8:30] Toni: ...uh, just mute, and not speak.

Silence

[8:38] Ronald: He’s good here, Sam. I like, I like the whole haunted...you literally have the haunted look in his eyes, which I think is really nice. That’s a real stag, right?

[8:47] Matt: Yeah

[8:47] Ronald: It’s like, not easy to carry it, that thing is heavy.

(laughter)

[8:50] Matt: He would have disembowled it and lost all the

[8:57] Ronald: But still…

[8:57] Matt: Uh, Sam, yeah yeah, it’s definitely heavy. But we did a bootcamp here for Sam, and had a butcher come in to teach him how to do this properly.

Silence

[9:11] Ronald: Did you have venison, like, that night on the set?

[9:13] Toni: (laughing)

[9:14] Matt: Um, I think, uh, I think we did actually.

[9:19] Toni: Yeah, we had definitely made a conscious choice in this scene not to have him speak at all. Jenny’s at him, she wants to pull him out of his…

[9:26] Ronald: Yeah

[9:29] Toni: ...you know, his grief.

Silence

[9:46] Ronald: Now where are we here? Is this one of our sets? Are you on location?

[9:49] Matt: This is a set on location at Midhope castle that plays for Lallybroch. So Gary Steele built us a nice little butcher shed.

Silence

[10:23] Toni: Oh yeah

[10:24] Ronald: Now this story went through a lot, I remember we wrestled more with the Frank/Claire story than we did with the Jamie story, really.

[10:30] Matt: Probably, in this episode, more than any…

[10:33] Ronald: Yeah

[10:33] Matt: ...of, of…

[10:36] Ronald: Now what was the original, where did we start on this? Do you recall?

[10:40] Matt: This went through so many iterations I can’t even remember, to tell you the truth.

[10:44] Ronald: Because it was always, didn’t it always kind of end up in the same place, in that it was always gonna be the episode where Frank and Claire had sex, and then he realized that she was just kind of using him as a stand in for Jamie, and by the end…

[10:56] Toni: Right

[10:57] Ronald: That was always kind of the idea, wasn’t it?

[10:59] Matt: Well, I, also, we didn’t want, in the very beginning we weren’t running parallel timelines, we were just letting the timelines…

[11:07] Ronald and Toni: Right

[11:08] Matt: ...kind of take care of themselves and then we knew when we were gonna get them back together.

[11:12] Ronald: Yeah

[11:12] Matt: And, I think this came from some note somewhere that said, ‘Hey, can we run a more parallel…’

[11:18] Ronald: And track them more closely, yeah

[11:19] Toni: Yeah

[11:19] Matt: And that’s what gave us the biggest issues, was trying to keep them similar

[11:25] Ronald: Somewhat in the same time, but even that...

[11:27] Toni: Well…

[11:28] Ronald: ...we had to discard at a certain point.

[11:29] Matt: Yeah

[11:30] Ronald: Because the timelines just don’t sync

[11:31] Matt: They don’t match up, yeah

[11:33] Toni: I think there was a little bit of nervousness at how many episodes we should show where Claire and Jamie weren’t together, and we kept saying, ‘But they are going to be together,’ because they’re going to think of each other, dream of each other, fantasize, they’re gonna pray. Jamie prays, you know, about Claire, they are always connected. But we decided we could show them back and forth, but we had a rule that they never appear in the same frame together.

[11:56] Matt: Yeah, never in the same frame

[11:57] Ronald: Yeah

[11:58] Toni: And so, if you watch, even in that fantasy sequence where Claire’s fantasizing, they’re never shown together...

[12:03] Ronald: Yeah

[12:03] Toni: ...in the frame. Because we wanted to save that, I mean, if we showed them together in lots of flashbacks through these few episodes in the beginning, then, the reunion wouldn’t have had as large of an impact, because we’d have basically seen them together.

[12:19] Matt: But we did tone these. We toned them with the actors saying, ‘Hey, they have to be present in your thoughts.’ You know what I mean?

[12:26] Toni: Yeah

[12:27] Matt: They’re always there.

[12:29] Toni: This was a little easter egg for Caitriona that we did, because in the book there’s a scene where she sees the baby turn over, but we were like, ‘What can she be doing while the baby’s doing that?’ And we decided to have her read the paper…

[12:39] Matt: Oh, right

[12:39] Toni: ....cause our researcher, Emily, found this wonderful thing about how this was the birth of the Republic of Ireland. And, so we had Claire read about it in the Boston Globe and we thought Caitriona…

[12:50] Matt: Yep

[12:51] Toni: ...would like reading that.

[12:53] Ronald: And originally there was, because in the book, right, she sees him in the shower.

[12:58] Matt: Yes

[12:58] Ronald: And she would try that, and then it was like, did that fall out because of production?

[13:01] Matt: We didn’t have a bathroom

[13:02] Ronald: We didn’t have a bathroom, right?

[13:03] Toni: Right

[13:03] Ronald: So he’s getting out of the shower

[13:04] Matt: Yeah

[13:05] Ronald: He’s not…

[13:06] Toni: Right

[13:06] Matt: And we do have the bedroom, but, to play to, once again, make a working bathroom...

[13:13] Ronald: Yeah

[13:13] Matt: ...is, uh…

[13:15] Ronald: As I said on the podcast for episode one, this is a redress of the Paris apartment, which is really hard to believe, because it’s such a, it looks so completely different. But it is the exact same footprint of the old Paris apartment set...

[13:27] Matt: Yeah

[13:27] Ronald: ...which means that it’s up on a second story

[13:30] Toni: Mmm

[13:31] Ronald: Gary made it, like a walk-up, so you had a little bit of height, and then you could look down into that courtyard

[13:36] Matt: Which, by the way, we never used

[13:38] Ronald: The courtyard?

[13:39] Matt: No

[13:39] Ronald: I tried. I wrote it, I wrote it in episode one...

[13:40] Toni: (laughing)

[13:41] Matt: We had, I think..

[13:42] Ronald: ...that she went into the back to get wood

[13:44] Matt: We all wrote it in, Ron

[13:45] Ronald: And then, like...

(laughter)

[13:46] Ronald: ...everybody whines, ‘Ehhh, do we have to shoot in the courtyard?’

[13:49] Matt: I think I had a barbecue back there and then not one episode

[13:51] Ronald: Yeah, it’s like, ‘Ehh, do we have to?

[13:55] Toni: We’ll use it in season four

[13:56] Ronald: (laughing) Yeah, exactly

[13:57] Matt: It’s gone now guys

[13:57] Toni: We promise we’ll write something

[13:58] Ronald: Oh, that’s right, it is gone

[13:59] Matt: It is, uh, for those people, uh...

[14:01] Ronald: It’s in the way of all things

[14:03] Matt: ...thinking about season four?

[14:06] Toni: (chuckle)

Silence

[14:11] Matt: Finding a cave in Scotland…

[14:13] Ronald: (laughing)

[14:14] Matt: ...is difficult. We searched for six weeks to try to find an actual cave, and ultimately came down to, once again, the art department building one for us.

[14:26] Toni: Yeah, it’s just like, well, we had, let’s see, Dougal in a cave, we had Geillis Duncan and Claire in a cave.

[14:34] Matt: But once you shoot…

[14:35] Toni: We shoot a lot in caves.

[14:36] Matt: Once you shoot a cave out, though, you can’t go back, you know?

[14:39] Toni: Right

[14:40] Ronald: Batman would not have done well in Scotland

[14:42] Toni: (laughing)

[14:42] Matt: No.

Silence

[14:49] Toni: This, this isn’t something from the book, but we just felt strongly that it would be nice to show a reaction from Fergus. Because he’s watched a man that was his hero totally go into a shell and, and, just be a shell of his former self. And we thought it’d be cool for him to come in and challenge him and say, ‘I’m getting ready,’ you know, ‘for the next rebellion.’ And Jamie’s like, ‘The next rebellion? There’s not gonna be another rebellion.’ He, that’s the last thing he wants. But Fergus just wants to see his hero come back to life.

[15:25] Ronald: Well I thought it tracked better with the story of the gun, too.

[15:29] Toni: Mm hmm

[15:29] Ronald: Cause once we changed it not being Jamie’s gun, which I thought was the right move. Once it’s like, a gun that’s on the property, who’s gonna shoot it. Then it became, alright, let’s have the boys shoot it. Then it just felt like this tracked into that...

[15:43] Toni: Right

[15:43] Ronald: ...into that story. You’re starting with the boys, it’s Fergus’ secret, really. He’s the one that’s most interested in it. Then he tries to get Jamie to show him how to do it. And then later, he’s the one that actually goes and gets it

[15:54] Toni: Right. That’s right. And also, to honor, um, Fergus’ history with Claire, because he was there when Claire lost Faith…

[16:02] Ronald: Yeah

[16:03] Toni: ...and he knows what it means for a woman to lose a baby. And when he hears that that raven is going to bring a curse and kill the baby, he’s the one that shoots the raven.

Silence

[16:38] Ronald: Wouldn’t you like to hang out with me and the washing a little longer, Jamie?

[16:40] Toni: (laughing)

[16:41] Ronald: Jamie? You could help! Jamie? Wait, come back.

[16:45] Toni: He’s like, ‘I’m a mountain man. I don’t do laundry.’

[16:47] Ronald: I don’t do laundry

Silence

[16:57] Ronald: Yeah, in the book, it was, what? Jamie was outside with the boys, right?

[17:00] Matt: Yep

[17:01] Ronald: Saw the raven, and he was the one that said bad luck, pulled the pistol, and just shot it.

[17:07] Toni: Yeah

Silence

[17:15] Toni: There was just a feeling that Jamie would be unlikely to do that in reality, and that the kids, the kids were more likely to make this kind of mistake.

[17:24] Ronald: Yeah

[17:25] Toni: And put them in danger.

[17:27] Ronald: Yeah, and which I, it just plays a little better in a tv show this way.

[17:30] Toni: We had real ravens. We didn’t really shoot them, though

[17:33] Matt: We really didn’t shoot them.

[17:34] Toni: (laughing) But we had them

[17:35] Matt: Of course we didn’t shoot the ravens

[17:37] Ronald: We killed like a dozen ravens, what are you guys talking about?

[17:38] Toni: (laughing)

[17:40] Ronald: No we didn’t

[17:41] Toni: No. But this is…

Silence

[17:48] Matt: I think we went round and round on, do we show the redcoats? Because we don’t break POV very often

[17:53] Ronald: Yeah, we went back and forth quite a bit

[17:54] Matt: Yeah, cause it’s one of those kind of pet peeve things, where I hate breaking POV

[18:01] Ronald: Yeah

[18:01] Matt: And..

[18:02] Ronald: I think I push, I think I pushed it to turn away

[18:05] Matt: Yeah

[18:05] Ronald: Cause I thought it gave a little tension to all these scenes

[18:08] Matt: No, it does. It does.

Silence

[18:15] Toni: We also wanted to involve Mary McNab more in the story so we gave her, you know, we put her in quite a few scenes, cause, well we’ll see the surprise that happens at the end with Mary McNabb, but we wanted it to build (laughing)

[18:30] Matt: They’ve already seen it

[18:30] Ronald: Everyone listening to this podcast has seen it

[18:30] Toni: (laughing) I guess everyone’s seen it

[18:32] Matt: They’ve already seen it.

[18:33] Ronald: If you’re watching the episode for the first time like this, you’ve made a great mistake.

[18:36] Toni: Yeah, that’s pretty bad

[18:37] Matt: Yeah

[18:37] Toni: Okay, okay, he sleeps with Mary

[18:38] Matt: I’m just like, stop now and go back

[18:39] Ronald: Don’t watch the episode for the first time with us.

[18:40] Toni: (laughing)

[18:45] Toni: Ahh, so…

[18:47] Ronald: Real baby?

[18:48] Matt: Yes, yes

[18:48] Toni: This, this is a real baby, and it also, as the audience will recognize, it’s young Ian. This is young Ian, who will become quite a big character...

[18:57] Ronald: You’re right

[18:58] Matt: Yeah

[18:59] Toni: ...uh, in the future.

[19:00] Matt: Doesn’t that look like John Bell?

[19:02] Toni: And that looks like a lot like John Bell. I see the little dimple.

[19:04] Ronald: Yeah.

Silence

[19:09] Toni: I think we were talking, talked about how maybe this is the first time Jamie’s held a baby, um…

[19:16] Ronald: Yeah

[19:16] Toni: ...since, you know, since he lost Claire through the stones and he never, there was a baby of his that he never got to hold…

[19:23] Ronald: Yep

[19:23] Toni: ...that this is very emotional for him. Jenny’s already trying to pawn him off to Mary McNab

[19:30] Ronald: Yep

[19:34] Matt: I think she’s, she’s so crushed at seeing, you know, she knows the spirit that Jamie has

[19:41] Toni: Mm hmm

[19:41] Matt: And to watch it just fade away.

[19:45] Ronald: Yeah, now we get into, so this, this varies from the book in that, in the book...

[19:48] Matt: There was an armoire, yeah

[19:48] Ronald: ...there’s an armoire in the room, and Jamie ducks into the armoire and holds the baby in the armoire during the whole scene

[19:54] Toni: (laughing)

[19:55] Ronald: We got really stuck

[19:55] Matt: And we, but we had one, Ron.

[19:58] Ronald: We had one

[19:59] Matt: We just, he didn’t, couldn’t fit. He’s six foot three

[20:01] Ronald: I just didn’t buy it

[20:02] Matt: Yeah

[20:02] Ronald: It’s like, you read it in the book, and you buy it, and you’re like, in it. And then you look at the set, and you’re trying to figure out, well, why didn’t Sam just hand the baby back to her? (laughing)

[20:10] Matt: Yeah

[20:10] Toni: Right

[20:10] Ronald: And hide in the armoire? And I couldn’t, I couldn’t make it work in  my head, so then we just, I kept beating everyone up to find an alternate, and somebody came up with the idea of him stepping out and walking down the hall

[20:21] Matt: Well, we…

[20:22] Ronald: To get away from her, right?

[20:23] Matt: But also, we created another room...

[20:25] Ronald: We created another room

[20:25] Matt: ...with the tapestry behind it, and it really, you’ll see where he, he’ll be able to hear what’s going on, and that’s the key

[20:33] Ronald: Yeah

[20:33] Matt: He has to be connected to the room

[20:34] Toni: Yeah

[20:35] Ronald: Yeah

[20:36] Toni: And, we also did something different in that, in the book, uh, it’s wee Jamie comes in because he hears that the baby has died, supposedly. He hears the lie…

[20:44] Ronald: Oh, right

[20:44] Toni: ...he comes in and freaks out and starts crying. But, again, we wanted to use Mary McNab so that Jamie could, you know, she she comes in and confesses. Because after all, she has the gun

[20:54] Ronald: Yeah

[20:55] Toni: So when she turns over the gun, Jamie’s very impressed by her, and then admires her bravery and stepping up like that, and it, it helps to explain why he’s so open to her kindness, her gesture of kindness

[21:06] Ronald: Yeah, it kind of makes her, yeah, it kind of makes her worth of him, which is nice

[21:09] Toni: Exactly, exactly

[21:11] Matt: And I think in keeping with the spirit of the book, which is what we always try to do, is Jamie’s right there connected

[21:18] Ronald: Yeah

[21:18] Matt: And you know, he’s...

[21:19] Ronald: Still overhearing (unintelligible)

[21:20] Matt: ...what would he do if they, if they find out, well Jamie’s gonna act.

[21:24] Ronald: Yeah, cause the tension in the scene is the same, will he get caught?

[21:26] Matt: Yeah. Yeah.

[21:29] Toni: Yeah

Silence

[21:46] Toni: She’s so good, ha.

[21:47] Ronald: She is good.

Silence

[22:33] Toni: (chuckles) I love that line, ‘I’m heart sorry.’

[22:37] Ronald: Yeah, that’s a good one

[22:38] Toni: I started using it, after this episode

[22:41] Matt: Yeah? Heart sorry?

[22:42] Toni: I’m heart sorry

[22:43] Ronald: Toni’s heart sorry about everything now

(laughter)

[22:45] Toni: It’s such a Scottish saying, but it just, we don’t have any equivalent of that

[22:49] Ronald: Yeah, it’s very evocative

[22:50] Toni: It’s a nice way to say it. And this set is beautiful, too

[22:53] Matt: I know, this is a great set

[22:54] Ronald: Toni, aren’t you heart sorry they didn’t have the specials at Jones and 3rd?

[22:57] Toni: (laughing) Uh..

[23:04] Ronald: That was another, uh, add. That we didn’t have this, and we had to re..we had to film that later

[23:11] Matt: That little insert shot of the

[23:12] Ronald: The little insert shot of the, yeah.

[23:16] Matt: As we, as we all know, there’s only so much time to film everything, and once you see a first cut, sometimes you go, ‘It would be nice if we had this little extra beat.’

[23:26] Ronald: So sometimes we go back

Silence

[23:34] Ronald: Yeah, we shot these episodes sort of like, almost separate blocks, right? We’d shoot all the Frank/Claire stuff together, then we’d shoot all the Jamie stuff together, and...

[23:42] Matt: Quite a bit, yeah.

[23:43] Ronald: Did the, did, um…

[23:43] Toni: Mm hmm

[23:44] Ronald: ...Sam and Cait run into each other much, or were they pretty much on really separate…

[23:47] Matt: It, it was...in a weird way, they, for the first half of this season until you know, episode, until when they get together, um, they weren’t in a lot of, they weren’t scheduled, you know. We’d do the read-through together, of course.

[24:01] Ronald: Yeah

[24:02] Matt: And then after that…

[24:03] Ronald: They really wouldn’t see each other

[24:04] Matt: They wouldn’t really see each other.

[24:05] Ronald: Which is kind of cool.

[24:07] Toni: Mm hmm

[24:08] Ronald: Oh, we forgot to announce the scotch for tonight, is, uh, what?

[24:11] Matt: Oh!

[24:11] Toni: Ahh!

[24:12] Matt: The scotch is, um, because, uh, I can’t pronounce it, Tam Du?

[24:20] Ronald: T-A-M

[24:20] Matt: T-A-M D-H-U

[24:25] Ronald: Actually

[24:26] Toni: A gift from Starz.Thank you Starz.

[24:27] Ronald: Thank you Starz

[24:28] Matt: Yeah, really nice. Smooth.

[24:29] Ronald: It was in lieu of our salaries, but okay

[24:31] Toni: (laughing) They know how to keep the stories going, is to keep the whiskey flowing.

[24:36] Matt: Hey, that rhymes, Toni.

[24:38] Toni: Yeah, I’m, uh..

[24:39] Ronald: (laughing)

[24:41] Matt: Oh, always a debate. How much Frank, how much Claire?

[24:46] Ronald: How much Frank, how much Claire?

[24:51] Toni: Well…

[24:51] Ronald: Now, there was a version of this where, God, I’m trying to remember, we did various versions of this, too, right? The first time that we really saw them have sex, didn’t we? Yeah

[24:59] Matt: Oh, God, yeah

[25:00] Ronald: I’m trying to remember the other versions.

[25:03] Matt: Well, there’s one version, remember, they were, uh, this happened in the living room.

[25:09] Ronald: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking

[25:10] Matt: Yeah, yeah

[25:11] Ronald: There’s one in the living room

[25:12] Matt: There’s one in the living room

[25:12] Toni: There’s one later in the living room, that might be it

[25:14] Matt: But, there was, there was a group of these scenes that were moved around from episode to episode

[25:19] Toni: Right

[25:20] Matt: And, because of the timeline, that’s what got thrown out, so it’s how much are we going to show, how much are we going to, how much is gonna be in two, how much is gonna be in three?

[25:31] Toni: Well…

[25:31] Ronald: And where the episode ended, because the end of this episode is her going to medical school, correct?

[25:35] Toni: Mm hmm, yeah

[25:36] Matt: Yes

[25:36] Ronald: And that definitely floated around like

[25:38] Toni: Yeah

[25:38] Matt: Oh, yeah, absolutely

[25:40] Ronald: Sometimes it was here, sometimes it was the next episode

[25:41] Matt: Yeah. Well I did a version, because I did three, I wrote three, and, I had scenes in three where she was in medical school

[25:48] Ronald: Yeah

[25:50] Toni: That’s right

[25:50] Matt: Um, and ultimately I get to three, I get to the point where she’s graduating

[25:54] Ronald: Yeah

[25:55] Matt: And we don’t even show it. In medical school.

[25:58] Toni: Spoiler

[26:00] Matt: Oh, sorry, spoiler. That’s okay

[26:01] Toni: (laughing) No, I’m kidding. Um, we did talk about this stuff quite a bit, because it’s really important, I think, to show that Claire really tried with Frank. She didn’t just, you know…

[26:16] Ronald: Yeah

[26:18] Ronald: She gave it, she really, she tried

[26:20] Matt: Well, you have to believe that Frank and, why would they stay together twenty years? If she was just completely cold to the touch? I don’t..

[26:30] Ronald: Yeah

[26:30] Toni: Yeah, I mean, he was

[26:33] Ronald: And, Jamie literally is dead

[26:35] Matt: Yeah, I mean, he’s literally dead at this time

[26:36] Toni: Yeah. And Frank was her first love...

[26:39] Ronald: Yeah

[26:39] Toni: ...so she does care for him. He’ll never be equal to Jamie, but, you know it’s quite heroic what Frank did to take on this child, not only a child that wasn’t his, but the child is the child of the man his wife really loves, so. He’s a pretty good guy, and I think, I like the slow buildup of Claire, like the earlier scene where she just sees him without his shirt and just kind of touches his shoulder. And then, you know, she’s, she thinks if she can channel all her missing Jamie and all, and, into Frank, then maybe there will be a spark there.

[27:15] Ronald: Yeah

[27:15] Toni: And just for Brianna’s sake, you know, not to replace Jamie, but, to make the marriage, you know, uh, a solid foundation for their daughter, and that’s admirable on both of their parts. It would be short changing the story to not show that and I know we’re, we show quite a bit more of Frank and Claire than is in the book, but we just felt that you really needed to understand what that cost her and what that cost Frank. Um, and just see what they went through.

[27:41] Matt: Yeah, cause that is her story in the 20th century, is the story of their marriage. And the fact that she, it kind of propels her in an interesting way to go to medical school.

[27:49] Toni: Mm hmm

Silence

[27:55] Matt: And I think the medical school is a way of replacing the hole in her heart

[28:00] Ronald: Yep

[28:01] Toni: Yeah

[28:01] Matt: You know, it’s this, she loves medicine, she loves treating people, and if she can’t have Jamie, this, this is something she can really have that she truly loves, yeah

[28:09] Toni: Her passion

[28:10] Ronald: Yeah

[28:11] Matt: And it will never replace him, but

[28:14] Ronald: Now this is a little, this is pretty different than the book if I recall

[28:17] Toni: Yeah

[28:18] Matt: Yeah

[28:18] Ronald: In the book, Jamie is in his cave, right? And he looks out?

[28:20] Matt: Well, yes. The, actually, the spirit is there…

[28:23] Ronald: The spirit’s there

[28:24] Matt: ...because, you know, he taunts them,and all the kind of, what happens here, you know he taunts them. He runs away from them and I, uh, they eventually cut his hand off, but..

[28:38] Ronald: But  there wasn’t like a, the character of the corporal

[28:41] Matt: That’s what’s enhanced

[28:43] Toni: No, it was just some generic Redcoats, they stumble on Fergus as he’s bringing a cask of ale to Jamie.

[28:48] Ronald: That’s right, he was bringing ale

[28:49] Matt: Yeah, right.

[28:49] Toni: And in ours, we made it that Fergus is purposely going to warn Jamie that they’re after him, and then when he realizes he’s being followed he goes in circles to lead them away from the cave.

[29:00] Ronald: Yeah

[29:01] Matt: And then Jamie’s obviously checking his traps and overhears

[29:04] Toni: Because Fergus really saves Jamie’s life here, because they were headed towards the cave, and they could have found him.

Silence

[29:19] Toni: This was, this was very hard to choreograph. We wanted to make sure that Jamie was far enough away that he couldn’t have possibly saved him…

[29:27] Ronald: Yeah

[29:27] Toni: ...and that that’s the heartbreak of it is he sees it happen in the distance, and before you know it, it’s done, and Jamie can’t rescue him

[29:35] Matt: Well it’s also tricky because we shot, I mean, we went back and had to pick up a lot of these shots of Fergus and the Redcoats

[29:40] Ronald: All the first part of that was picked up, and then this part was, this was actually filmed

[29:45] Matt: And it was like

[29:46] Toni: You did a lot of this

[29:47] Ronald: And they were shot at different times of the year

[29:49] Matt: Different time of the year, yeah

[29:50] Toni: Mm

[29:50] Ronald: And the leaves were gone, and…

[29:51] Matt: Yeah

[29:52] Ronald: But you kind of get away with it because the audience really isn’t looking at the leaves on the trees

[29:54] Matt: You know, it’s just, we’ve learned where to point the camera, Ron

[29:58] Ronald: Yeah

(laughter)

[30:00] Matt: Tilt down

Silence

[30:06] Toni: Ah, I can’t watch this. (laughs)

[30:08] Ronald: Really? That’s my screen saver

[30:09] Toni: Ahh (laughs)

[30:10] Matt: It’s uh, you know, once again, our, Richard Briscoe, our visual effects supervisor...all this, it’s very compli...it even looks like it’s a very simple shot. It’s very complicated to do these

[30:27] Ronald: Yeah, it is compli...surprisingly complicated

[30:29] Matt: Yeah

[30:30] Ronald: You think, ‘Oh yeah, chop off the hand, eh, do that in an afternoon

[30:32] Matt: Exactly

[30:33] Toni: Yeah

[30:34] Matt: And the planning that goes into it is just

Silence

[30:40] Toni: Yeah. And also, in the book the Redcoats actually feel bad after they do it because it was kind of like more, a little more accidental, done in just, uh, a rage. We had it be more calculated. And in the book the Redcoats bring him back to Lallybroch and give him to Jenny and actually even give her some money for his care.

[30:56] Ronald: Oh that’s right

[30:57] Matt: That’s right

[30:58] Toni: But we thought it would be great if Jamie, you know, was the one that had to pick him up and carry him, carry him back home. We wanted Jamie, the hero shot. But this is exactly from the book and I do love it. I believe the chapter ends where it says, you know, and that his hand lays there facing up in supplication, or something. It was very beautifully worded and we, we used that exactly, because it was so sort of poetic. In a tragic way.

Silence

[31:43] Toni: Sam does a great job here. He really breaks your heart

[31:50] Ronald: Well, and it works because he’s been, he’s held himself so tight through the whole show…

[31:52] Matt: Yeah

[31:53] Ronald: ...that you’ve really earned this moment

[31:56] Matt: And it took the moment of him actually having to carry him back and know what, what his actions…

[32:03] Toni: Mm hmm

[32:04] Matt: ...you know, being absent, being vacant. It’s one of my favorite moments

[32:10] Ronald: Yeah, this is a good little scene

Silence

[32:25] Ronald: Was this Roman’s last scene?

[32:29] Matt: Um…

[32:30] Toni: Hmm…

[32:31] Matt: Well, I mean, in the sense of when we filmed, no, because we filmed all the running and…

[32:38] Ronald: But in, in the show?

[32:39] Matt: In the show, yeah

[32:40] Ronald: So this is goodbye to Roman, who’s been Fergus for, ever since the beginning. (pause) And it’s his last show because you will see we’re gonna take a significant time jump...

[32:53] Matt: Yeah

[32:53] Ronald: ...coming up, and then we had to recast the role

[32:56] Toni: Right, right.

Silence

[33:01] Matt: Only because he grows up twenty years

[33:03] Ronald: (laughing) Yes

(laughing)

[33:04] Ronald: We couldn’t really, we tried to put a mustache on him, and...

[33:06] Matt: Yeah

[33:07] Toni: (laughing)

[33:07] Ronald: ...give him lifts, but it didn’t quite work

[33:08] Matt: When you give the actor a note, ‘Grow a beard,’ ...

[33:11] Ronald: Grow a beard and come back to us

[33:12] Matt: ...you know, it’s, it’s, yeah.

Silence

[33:32] Matt: I think that if Jamie sees the little rascal in him, that he used to be, and that I think that’s how they bond

[33:38] Ronald: It is a similar kind of spirit

[33:40] Matt: Yeah

[33:40] Toni: Yeah. There’s no self pity here. We always talk about how Jamie never has self pity and we loved, you know, that original line of his about, ‘Chickens make very poor company.’

[33:49] Ronald and Matt: Yeah

[33:50] Toni: He, he laughs everything  off, even when it’s some horrific thing that’s happening to him, and Fergus does the same because…

[33:54] Matt: Yeah

[33:55] Toni: ...Fergus has no self pity here, he just says, ‘I’m lucky! I’m lucky, cause now you have to support me the rest of your life, cause you promised,’ and…

[34:03] Matt: Yeah, he’s already calculated it out, you know

[34:05] Ronald and Toni: Yeah

[34:09] Ronald: Now this speech he’s giving here, this was actually, it was supposed to be something Jamie said to him on camera during season two. And, it got cut somewhere along the line, I don’t remember if, I know we wrote it a couple times. Did we film it and then cut it, or was it cut before it was filmed?

[34:22] Matt: No, I don’t think we ever filmed it

[34:24] Ronald: But it was an important piece of…

[34:26] Matt: Yeah

[34:26] Ronald: ...the promise, cause we knew it was gonna be echoed back here.

[34:38] Toni: (chuckles)

Silence

[34:46] Ronald: A man of pleasure? What is that?

[34:47] Matt: Leisure (rhyming with pleasure)

[34:47] Toni: A man of leisure (rhyming with pleasure)

[34:48] Ronald: Oh, a man of leisure

[34:49] Toni: (laughing)

[34:49] Matt: Pleasure, too, I’m sure

[34:50] Toni: He’s French! It’s always pleasure, you know

[34:52] Ronald: He’s a man of pleasure

[34:54] Matt: This is, uh, this is created...

[34:57] Ronald: Yep, this is, yep..

[34:47] Matt: ...you know, this is

[35:01] Ronald: And I love the fact that you guys took Millie and Jerry and kept them going after the first episode

[35:05] Toni: (laughing) And you named them that, what?

[35:08] Ronald: After Dick van Dyke’s neighbors

[35:10] Toni: That’s right, that’s right

[35:10] Matt: Yeah

Silence

[35:15] Toni: Well we thought it would be cool, right, to put them with the quintessential American couple who were very much in love and flirtatious and they’re just, Claire and, Claire and Frank are just starting to...bond again, and

[35:32] Ronald: Kind of frisky

[35:33] Matt: Yeah

[35:35] Toni: Frank is hoping some of them will rub off on them, which it does, it does for awhile

[35:37] Ronald: Yeah

[35:39] Matt: And you almost wonder if Frank invited them over because of that

[35:44] Ronald: Could be. It’s interesting to speculate what their life, you know…

[35:48] Matt: Yeah

[35:48] Ronald: ...there’s, there’s an alternate tv show of the life of Claire and Frank that you could’ve run, too

[35:53] Toni: Oh, I, I totally would watch that show

[35:55] Ronald: I would watch that show. Whatever that story was, through those years. Like, a really interesting couple.

Silence

[36:14] Ronald: I really love this set. One, it’s massive, uh, um. Gary Steele doesn’t do things on a small scale

[36:23] Toni: I want that whiskey glass,that’s a lot fancier than the ones we have right here

[36:25] Ronald: I know, it’s great glasses. Yeah, where’d you get those?

[36:28] Toni: How come, yeah

[36:29] Matt: What are these, from Ikea, I think

[36:30] Toni: (laughing)

[36:31] Ronald: Yeah, we should be drinking those. Those need to be in the writer’s office.

[36:34] Toni: (laughing) Yeah

[36:35] Matt: Um..

[36:36] Toni: Call up Glasgow (unintelligible)

[36:37] Matt: Boy, we went around about this, huh?

[36:40] Ronald: Oh yeah

[36:41] Matt: We always, we always do, though. We should probably drink more whiskey when we go around on these things

[36:47] Toni: (laughing)

[36:49] Matt: But I do love this set, it’s just, it offers so many angles and so many places to shoot

[36:55] Ronald: What was the argument on this scene?

[36:57] Matt: Uh, when, how, and how far, you know

[36:59] Toni: Well, I think it was important

[37:01] Matt: Only basics (laughs)

[37:01] Toni: It was important to show Claire as the aggressor because…

[37:04] Matt: Yeah

[37:04] Toni: ...we didn’t want it to just be like Frank was like, just all over her

[37:07] Ronald: Yeah

[37:07] Toni: We wanted to show that she, she has an attraction, and she’s, she’s trying to make it work, and

[37:15] Ronald: Well and Claire’s always owned her own sexuality and her own...

[37:37] Toni: Yeah

[37:18] Ronald: ...sexual appetite, so that felt right, too

[37:20] Toni: This reminds me of the pilot…

[37:22] Ronald: Yeah

[37:22] Toni: ...uh, the way they were. But, here’s the catch, here, because she is closing her eyes, and Frank, no dummy comes to realize that...

[37:34] Matt: Well, and I, I think that’s the key to this, was, that even though she’s being sexual, she’s not being intimate

[37:41] Toni: That’s right

[37:42] Ronald: That was the trick

[37:42] Matt: And that’s, the, that’s the big difference, is…

[37:44] Ronald: Yeah

[37:44] Matt: ...that she’s not being intimate and, and of course Frank picks up on it here, and…

[37:51] Toni: Yeah

[37:52] Matt: ...as we say, anybody, any two people can have sex…

[37:55] Toni: That’s right

[37:55] Matt: ...but it, it takes a special two to be intimate with each other

Silence

[38:04] Toni: Yeah, I love when he says, ‘When I’m with you, I’m with you,’ but…

[38:07] Ronald: Yeah

[38:07] Toni: …’you’re with him.’ And…

[38:10] Ronald: Cause he’s sensitive to this, I mean, it’s like…

[38:12] Toni: Yeah

[38:13] Ronald: ...it’s, part of his mind never quite lets go of this, that she was with Jamie, and that she loved him deeply, and...

[38:20] Toni: Of course

[38:20] Ronald: ...and in these moments he’s kind of on guard, I think, against this sort of thing

[38:23] Matt: Yeah

[38:24] Toni: Of course, yeah

[38:25] Matt: He’s hyper sensitive about all her reactions

[38:27] Ronald: Yeah

[38:28] Toni: And, what’s interesting, you know, I mean there’s a reason she always wore Frank’s wedding band. She never took it off, even with Jamie

[38:33] Ronald: Yeah

[38:34] Toni: But now, you know, and now it’s flipped, and she’s wearing Jamie’s wedding band and Frank has to, you know, both men are very strong men to be able to say, ‘I know you loved someone else, and you got a piece of them right there on your hand,’ um, because it’s a testament to Claire and how deep her feelings are that she’s like, ‘I’m not taking either of these off to make either one of you guys feel better, cause if you love me you’ve gotta love the part of me and then accept the part of me that loved someone else deeply.’ Or she would be a shallow person, so

[39:03] Matt: Mm hmm

Silence

[39:15] Toni: This is one of those scenes that could probably be cut, because it’s not really integral to the plot, but we loved it, we all loved it so much, because,uh, it was a nice Ian/Jamie bonding scene where Ian talks about the phantom pain in his leg, and he, he knows what Jamie’s going through, that, his phantom pains are about Claire. And it was  just such a nice metaphor and a nice scene that we, we kept it in, um, and we love, you know, we just love seeing the two of these guys together.

[39:45] Ronald: Yeah, it’s nice to do something with Ian

[39:46] Toni: They’re like, brothers, you know. They fought in a war together, um. Jamie was there when Ian lost his leg, and Ian wasn’t there fighting in Culloden.

[39:59] Ronald: Yeah

[40:00] Toni: Ironically, because of his leg, but he knows what it feels like for Jamie to lose Claire

[40:08] Ronald: And this was shot much later as well, as I recall

[40:10] Matt: Yeah, this was shot later. We, it was, uh, once again one of those inserts we felt like we needed to tell the story

[40:17] Ronald: Yeah, it didn’t feel like we had quite set up the, the motivation, made clear the motivations for Jamie to turn himself in ultimately

[40:24] Matt: Yeah

[40:26] Ronald: So the idea that they were just never gonna give up looking for him, and the family would always be in danger, until he did this was really the driving force

[40:32] Matt: Exactly

[40:33] Toni: Right

[40:34] Matt: And again, it’s a nice beat to give us one more pop of Mary McNab. Now we did have a sequence, we did shoot a sequence where Jamie killed Corporal McGregor

[40:44] Toni: Yes

[40:45] Matt: We did

[40:45] Ronald: We did

[40:46] Matt: We built, we built that huge tank…

[40:48] Ronald: I know

[40:49] Matt: ...that drowned him in

[40:49] Ronald: To drown him in

[40:50] Toni: (laughing) He takes him to the creek, and he holds his head under and drowns him

[40:52] Matt: There’s still people in accounting having palpitations about that

[40:55] Toni: (laughing)

[40:56] Ronald: But, it just, it didn’t work

[40:57] Matt: Yeah

[40:58] Ronald: We saw it in the cut, and, just didn’t work and didn’t believe it, and ultimately felt like we could cut it and the show would be stronger for it. I kind of miss it, you kind of miss that there’s not, you know, a final beat with the villain of the piece, that, you know, so it’s a little bit of a dangling plot thread that, oh, we never really pay off the villain and Jamie never really gets his revenge, but in some ways that’s sort of interesting that we don’t go down that traditional…

[41:21] Matt: Well that’s what I like about it, Ron, is that, we didn’t, like a traditional television show…

[41:28] Ronald: Yep

[41:28] Matt: ...ties up every loose end, and the bad guys always get the comeuppance, and we didn’t do that, and I kind of like that

[41:33] Ronald: I think, I think it is a little  better.

[41:35] Matt: History doesn’t always…

[41:36] Toni: Mm hmm

[41:36] Matt: ...you know, you don’t always get justice

[41:37] Ronald: Yeah, yeah

Silence

[41:48] Toni: Also, in the book, uh,  Jamie makes a plan to turn himself in and one of his cousins, uh, ends up, some neighbor or cousin turns him in, it wasn’t Jenny. Um, and we don’t see it, it’s off camera, but, we wanted to, we wanted to put Jenny in that

[42:06] Matt: Sure, give it away, Toni, we’re not even there yet

[42:08] Toni: (laughing)

[42:10] Ronald: You’re the worst

[42:10] Toni: If you’re watching this for the first time..

[42:13] Matt: I think one, um, nice thing the director of this episode, Jennifer Getzinger did, is, especially when she shot Jamie, she got into his eyes

[42:22] Ronald: Mm hmm

[42:23] Matt: She, you know, because, as you said earlier, Ron, you know, he was so silent. He’s so inverted in this, um, introverted in this particular episode. You had to be tight to his eyes

[42:37] Ronald: Yeah

[42:37] Matt: And I think we, I think she really, uh, dove into that

Silence

[42:47] Matt: I think this also plays, in a way that, Claire’s trying to make her life work, knowing Jamie’s dead…

[42:55] Ronald: Mm hmm

[42:55] Matt: ...or thinking Jamie’s dead. And, Jamie has to eventually start to do the same thing, is, even though it’s, uh, it’s nothing intimate, but it’s just a physical thing…

[43:08] Ronald: Yeah

[43:08] Matt: To feel someone’s touch, when you haven’t felt anybody’s touch for seven years

[43:12] Ronald: Yeah

[43:13] Matt: You know, that’s hard...

[43:14] Toni: Mm hmm

[43:14] Matt: ...that’s hard to live like that

[43:15] Ronald: Was it scripted that she’s shaving him?

[43:18] Matt: Uh, yes.

[43:20] Toni: Yeah

[43:20] Ronald: Cause that’s a nice, that’s a really nice touch, cause it, it is an intimate act…

[43:24] Matt: Yeah

[43:24] Ronald: ...to, letting somebody shave you is a tremendous amount of trust and comfort and there’s an intimacy just in that, which sets this, it kind of helps this scene progress, cause you’re not starting from zero

[43:37] Toni: Right, we had to really walk a fine line, because we didn’t want this to be, you know, lecherous in any way, or, you know, just crass. We wanted to be tender and selfless, and, it’s not really sexy. It’s, it’s just about keep, you know, humanity, and connection.

[44:01] Ronald: Mm, I think it’s a little sexy

[44:02] Toni: It’s, it’s, it’s a little sexy, but..

[44:06] Matt: You know, cause there’s candles

[44:08] Toni: (laughing)

[44:08] Ronald: There’s candles, see?

[44:10] Matt: When there’s candles, it’s sexy. And romantic, Toni...

[44:12] Ronald: That’s right

[44:13] Matt: ...that’s just a rule. Cosmo says that (chuckles)

[44:16] Toni: Right, but he closes his eyes, just like Claire did, cause he’s…

[44:19] Ronald: But he had those candles lit

[44:20] Toni: ...imagining Claire

[44:21] Ronald: Why’d you have all those candles burning there, Jamie?

[44:22] Matt: Exactly...

[44:23] Toni: (laughing)

[44:23] Matt: Who are you expecting coming by?

[44:26] Toni: (laughs again)

[44:27] Matt: Pretty soon you hear Luther Vandross come on there

(laughing)

[44:32] Ronald: Then you know it’s sexy

[44:32] Toni: (laughing) Oh, my gosh

[44:34] Matt: I think Bear would have a heart attack

(chuckling)

[44:39] Ronald: She’s good, I like her

[44:40] Toni: Yeah, she’s very good

[44:41] Matt: She did a very nice job

Silence

[44:45] Matt: And it’s a tough thing to do, is, you know, you know, play this part, you know

[44:53] Ronald: Yeah, this is a tough part

[44:54] Matt: Yeah

[44:57] Ronald: And to play it without being pathetic, you know…

[44:58] Matt: Yes

[44:59] Toni: Yeah

[44:59] Ronald: ...to play it where it’s, you have a tremendous amount, I have a tremendous amount of empathy for her...

[45:03] Toni: Yeah, absolutely

[45:03] Ronald: ...and feeling for her, and I don’t, I don’t feel it being pathetic or pitiful at all

[45:09] Matt: Or that she wants something more than this moment

[45:11] Ronald: Right

[45:12] Toni: No and, you know…

[45:12] Matt: And I think that’s the special thing about this particular scene is that, you feel like it ends after this ends

[45:18] Ronald: Yeah

[45:19] Toni: Yeah

[45:19] Ronald: Yeah, it doesn’t imply anything else

[45:20] Matt: Yeah

[45:20] Toni: And they have a history together in that he saved his son, her son from the abusive husband

[45:27] Ronald: Right, that’s right

[45:29] Toni: So she’s sort of, is grateful to him, and, uh, he’s a hero to her

Silence

[45:48] Ronald: I like the way his fingers are, just that they can just barely touch her

Silence

[45:59] Matt: And I think like, Claire, his mind, well, his mind may be there in the cave but his heart is someplace else, and I think that’s the important thing

[46:10] Toni: Yeah. (pause) He closes his eyes, and, she’s like, ‘Is it, is it cause I’m not attractive?’ Which, it breaks your heart, you know?

[46:20] Ronald: Yeah

[46:20] Toni: She’s just so sweet and, and he’s like, ‘Nah, it’s just something I do.’ And he played this really well and look he’s crying

[46:27] Matt: Yeah

[46:27] Toni: I mean, aww

[46:28] Ronald: It’s good, he’s affecting (unintelligible)

[46:30] Toni: It is very very good. I think, um, this season he’s, I just, amazing this season. It’s a particularly great season for Sam

Silence

[46:49] Matt: Now this may look like Boston, but it’s really not

(laughing)

[46:55] Matt: By the way, cutest baby

[46:56] Toni: That’s  a very cute baby

[46:58] Matt: She did a great job (chuckles)

[46:59] Toni: I love what she’s wearing, too, I love this giant coat

[47:02] Ronald: Mm hmm

[47:03] Toni: That is awesome

[47:03] Ronald: Yeah, it looks really good

Silence

[47:08] Ronald: This went through a lot of changes

[47:10] Matt: Boy, did it ever

[47:11] Toni: (laughs)

[47:11] Ronald: Man, we played around all these different versions of how and when she decides to go to medical school and how she tells Frank, and…

[47:18] Matt: And we, we added this little insert in of this first woman treasurer…

[47:24] Toni: Oh, oh yeah, that was your idea

[47:24] Matt: ...to, to kind of add a, to add a visual of…

[47:27] Toni: Yeah

[47:28] Matt: ...hey, a woman can do anything in this time, you know?

[47:32] Toni: And she’s been a doctor, I mean, she’s been a surgeon, she’s been a doctor all those years, you know, the years she spent back in the 18th century and so...we came up with this transition from housewife, washing the knives in the sink to scalpel

Silence

[47:52] Ronald: Is this University of Glasgow?

[47:54] Matt: No, this is actually a disbanded veterinarian classroom, uh, that we, uh, that we turned into the Harvard Medical School

[48:08] Ronald: Veterinarian, really?

[48:09] Matt: Yeah, there’s a...I mean,it’s essentially a working classroom, I mean it was a working classroom at the time, but…

[48:16] Ronald: Huh

[48:16] Matt: ...it was, uh, for a veterinarian school

[48:18] Ronald: Well that’s interesting

[48:19] Matt: Yeah

[48:20] Ronald: And now there was a version of this scene, or am I mixing it up with another episode?

[48:25] Toni: No, there was a version where…

[48:29] Ronald: With all the cadavers?

[48:29] Toni: ...she walks in the room and there’s like twelve cadavers…

[48:31] Ronald: Yeah

[48:31] Toni: ...and each of them has a scalpel and they’re gonna make the first cut…

[48:36] Ronald: Right

[48:36] Toni: ...together, but because we loved this set so much we thought, well, let’s just do it with the professor makes the cut. We can still get to our final line that we love so much, which was, ‘Gentlemen, let’s begin.’

[48:46] Ronald: Yeah

[48:46] Toni: Because she’s the only lady amongst the gentlemen and then, um, and we get to see her first meeting with, um, Joe Abernathy, which we don’t see in the book. Um, by the time we catch up with them they’d been classmates for awhile and we wanted to go back and show, uh, the first moment they saw each other and met in this classroom where they’re both very much outsiders

Silence

[49:11] Matt: And you almost wonder, in this, who’s more the outsider?

[49:16] Toni: (chuckling) Yeah. Yeah, the way the teacher says, ‘A woman and a negro, how modern.’ It’s so much fun to write those, those, uh, guys. I know in Culloden, and you’re, in the premier to write the professor…

[49:30] Ronald: The professor and the dean

[49:30] Toni: ...and this was another version of that, because, in the premier…

[49:35] Ronald: Yeah

[49:35] Toni: ...he says, ‘The next thing you know they’ll be letting women into medical school,’ (chuckles) when they certainly…

[49:40] Ronald: Yeah, we beat up Harvard pretty well in these episodes (laughing)

[49:44] Toni: Yeah

[49:44] Matt: Well, I think, you could have probably said that about a lot of institutions…

[49:48] Ronald: Yes, absolutely

[49:48] Matt: ...at that time, rather than just Harvard

[49:51] Ronald: Yeah

[49:52] Toni: Yeah

[49:53] Matt: I think we beat up the ‘50s pretty good

[49:55] Ronald: Yeah

[49:58] Toni: If you look up the graduating class of, the first women’s class that graduated from Harvard Med, Claire looks, you could just paste her right into the picture

[50:08] Matt: Mm hmm

[50:08] Toni: The clothes, Terry did a great job and…

[50:11] Matt: This…

[50:12] Toni: ...uh, her hair, everything, she would just fit right in

[50:14] Matt: This was, uh, Tobias’ last day on set

[50:17] Ronald: Oh! Really?

[50:18] Matt: Um, yeah, and it was, it was both, you know, bittersweet, um, such a lovely, lovely guy, but, um, to lose, you know, two of the biggest characters all in, you know, one fell swoop, you know, uh..

[50:34] Toni: Mm

[50:35] Matt: But, we also brought him out to the living room in his pajamas and put on a nice little light show and we called everybody down…

[50:41] Toni: (laughing) That’s awesome

[50:43] Matt: ...and paraded him around, uh, in his pajamas

[50:45] Ronald: I love the twin beds

[50:46] Matt: Yeah, the twin beds is great

[50:47] Ronald: I think that was my idea

[50:48] Toni: That was, yeah, that was your idea to do a shot where you didn’t see the twins til the very end

[50:52] Ronald: I wanted to, to put the same, Gary wouldn’t go for it, I wanted to put the same illustrations above their beds they had in I Love Lucy

[50:58] Matt: Ahh, right, right, right

[50:59] Ronald: But Terry was like, ‘Eh, it’s a step too far.’ And here’s the scene that was in the trailer that freaked everybody out (chuckles)

[51:05] Toni: (chuckles)

[51:05] Matt: Yeah, but, but Ron, they all, every scene in the trailers freaked them out

[51:11] Ronald: Yeah, every scene in the trailer freaks people out

[51:13] Toni: I love when people are analyzing and trying to guess what it’s gonna be and they, they

[51:17] Matt: And they get it wrong?

[51:18] Toni: They get it wrong…

[51:19] Matt: They get it so wrong?

[51:19] Toni: ...because then we know that they’ll have a surprise later

[51:21] Matt: Yeah

[51:21] Toni: She, she’s amazing. Laura Donnelly, any episode she’s in is just kicked up a few notches, she’s brilliant. This is one of my favorite scenes she’s ever done, you just feel her pain there

[51:35] Matt: Yeah, she’s really good

[51:36] Toni: Ah, and she’s talking to Jamie, and...she’s saying what she really feels. She’ll never forgive him, it’s his own fault.

Silence

[52:00] Toni: But in a…

[52:01] Matt: Ah, Laura Donnelly!

[52:02] Ronald: Laura

[52:03] Matt: She knocks it out of the park

[52:04] Ronald: Mm

[52:07] Toni: But in a weird way, even though Jamie’s being captured, um, he’s going back, he’s really, it’s a victory for him because he goes back to being, he throws the dunbonnet down. He’s done hiding, and he’s kind of, he’s, he’s Jamie Fraser again, the Jamie Fraser that we know. Um, and Claire, going back to medical school has gotten a piece of herself back that she was with Jamie, um, so their emotional arcs kind of come together. And this, and this scene we added at the end at the last minute. It was based on something that happened to me. I was going down the street in Glasgow, and I heard this familiar song echoing down the road and I’m like, ‘Wait, that sounds so familiar,’ so I run towards it, and it was the song from the pilot, being played by this band Clanadonia, that we used one of their songs in our show. And they’re actually from Glasgow and they play on Buchanan Street in Glasgow. And I found myself standing in front of them where, like, you put a dollar in the, you know, in the hat, uh, and they’re playing this amazing song that came straight from Outlander, and I felt it was a magical moment. And I’m like, ‘Ah,’ you know, Claire could hear some, a bagpiper, and, just it could just tear her heart open, thinking of Jamie here.

[53:23] Ronald: It’s such a great ending to the show, too

[53:27] Toni: Well, it just shows the connection between them, the challenge of showing them in separate episodes and yet always together

[53:35] Ronald: Well, there you have it, episode 302

[53:37] Matt: Yep

[53:38] Ronald: It’s a good one

[53:39] Toni: A very good one

[53:40] Ronald: Well, until next time, uh, it’s uh, Ron, Matt, and Toni. Thanking you for joining us

[53:46] Toni: Slàinte

[53:47] Ronald: Slàinte mhath

[53:48] Matt: Yep, and we will see you again in 303

[53:51] Ronald: Until then, goodnight and good luck!

[53:54] Toni: Goodnight