Episode 305 - "Freedom and Whisky"

The Official Outlander Podcast Episode 305 - Freedom and Whisky

Drink of the week: Hendrick’s Gin

Toni: Hi everyone. We’re doing this a little differently this year. You won’t be able to hear the episode in the background of the podcast, so in order to sync up the show with what we’re saying, you should pause now and hit play as soon as the main titles start. [0:14]

[0:16] Toni: Hi, this is Toni Graphia, executive producer/writer for Outlander and I’m here with executive producer Maril Davis.

Maril: Thank you for having me. I feel like such a guest in your podcast.

Toni: (laughs) We’re here today watching uh, episode 305, “Freedom and Whisky.” And I’m a, I’m especially happy to be doing this podcast with Maril because I think that um, not only do I adore her but…

Maril: Aww

Toni: ...we talked about this episode um, probably more than any other episode this season in terms of, I, I don’t know why, what it was, maybe the, that it’s about mothers and daughters, but I just remember, you know, driving, even after work, driving home down the freeway and the phone would ring and it’d be Maril and she’d be like, “Oh, and another thing I thought of for this episode…” because we just, we talked a lot about what it meant to be, you know, uh, have a relationship between mother and daughter and how, how that plays out in this particular circumstance and a lot of strong opinions.

Maril: Yeah, and I think, you know, we talked about what it means to be a mom and, do you have your own life and, you know, do you deserve to uh, still want things in life? And at what point do you put aside being a mom to pursue your own stuff, but is that selfish? And I mean, so many interesting things here.

Toni: Right

Maril: But, um, obviously, and the title, “Freedom and Whisky,” how’d you think of that title? You love whisky.

[1:33] Toni: Uh, actually, yeah, that was, the title was, it, it’s in the book and it’s, it ends up being the clue, as we know, that, that leads uh, Claire to realize that Jamie is alive in the, in the present, in her timeline and uh, this is again one of those episodes where, um, I love this part of the book and I just really wanted to write it and I wrote in the margin, “Freedom and whisky.” And I knew, you know, my goal is to write an episode called that and take this section of the book just because I loved it so much.

Maril: Yeah. And you know, this scene is fun because um, we actually had um, Caitriona come in a few times and practice with some actual doctors and nurses and um, it was kind of amazing, I will be honest, how quickly Caitriona kind of like, got it down and was able to master some of these techniques. I mean, obviously, wouldn’t be able to do real surgery but um, I think she looks pretty good here. (laughs)

Toni: She look, she looks great and, and…

Maril: She’s got it down

Toni: ...I wanted to see her working as a surgeon and, in the book, of course, you know, it’s mentioned that that’s, that’s her job and she went to Harvard Medical School, but they don’t, I don’t believe they actually have scenes of her operating and I just thought it’d be um, a great dynamic opening. Especially because they’re wearing masks and the goal was kinda to come in on this group of people and then, once you hear Claire’s voice, cause you don’t really see her face right away, go, you know, “Holy shit! It’s Claire!” You know, and there she is kind of a rock star surgeon

Maril: Yeah

Toni: You know? Like, of course she would be.

Maril: I think we do regret that we couldn’t see a little more of Claire’s journey um, to becoming a doctor. I think for me that was such an interesting part of the books and um, and such an amazing thing for a woman at that time. And certainly for Joe, an African American at that time, um, so I think we do regret that we couldn’t show a little bit more of that

Toni: Yeah

Maril: Um, but it was hard to do without doing a Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman story. Uh, even though...

Toni: Hey, what’s wrong with Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman?

(laughing)

Maril: We love Dr. Quinn. Toni obviously worked on that early in her career.

[3:26] Toni: Um, this, this scene came out of something, actually, that Matt, uh, Roberts told me. He was telling me one day, a story about how Paul Revere, you know, can uh, the story of Paul Revere…

Maril: Right (chuckles)

Toni: ...wasn’t really the story we all grew up with. I thought that was so fascinating that, you know, we used it here because it was just such a perfect example of uh, how history is shaped by, by the stories that get told and um, and it’s perfect to make Brianna, you know, it’s already on her mind about her own history, how much of it was real…

Maril: Right

Toni: ...how much of it was a story, and we wanted to just highlight that, that although she found out all this stuff back in, you know, when she was in Scotland. Now that she’s come back and fit into her rou, her normal life in Boston, she just can’t go back to how it was now that she, the rug’s kind of been pulled out from under her and she knows all these new things about her life and her history

Maril: Yeah, I do like that line, um, “He had a better publicist.” I think that’s hilarious.

Toni: Yeah. (laughs) And uh, the professor’s David Brown, uh, named uh, lovingly after our awesome...

Maril: (laughing) Our producer

Toni: ...rockstar producer, David Brown. Uh, Dani, our, our a historian/assistant, actually uh, came up with all the stuff. She has a PhD in history and uh, she just graduated from grad school uh, at St. Andrews and we had her come up with all the stuff for the chalkboard, and I believe she even wrote it, may have written it on the chalkboard. Or at least she wrote it out for the art, art people to write and so, what you see in the background on the board there is uh, thanks, Dani. (laughing) I couldn’t have written it!

Maril: Yeah. I, I do forget how we conceived to do this episode, um, how, what the origins of this were that we decided just do, a, a story just about um, Claire, Brianna, and Roger and not include Jamie.

[5:17] Toni: Well, I mean, we talked in the early stages of the season, there was a, at one point we talked about doing a, an all Jamie episode and an all Claire episode, but then I think we actually went away from that and I had really loved the section of the book about Jamie and his son but I also loved this part, and I tried at one point to put them all into one episode and the, at, this happens almost every time I write but, usually I just have to cut, cut, cut. But on this one when I called and went, “Um, it’s like, up to eighty pages, guys,” um, they were like, “Alright, maybe we just make it into two.” Um, which was, a little challenging to write back to back episodes but I just, you know, these happen to be my two favorites, so it…

Maril: And by the way, a little sidenote about Toni G. um…

Toni: (laughing) Uh oh, uh oh

Maril: ...normally, normally she ends up not wanting to do an episode. She’s like, “Of all the episodes I don’t know if I can write this one,” and then, of course it ends up being her favorite at the end.

Toni: Oh, well

Maril: She always, you always fall in love with your episodes. I think that’s what’s so special about your

Toni: Eventually I do fall in love with them, but some of them I’m like, “Egads, please no! Not ‘Rent!’ I don’t wanna write, ‘Rent!’” And then it, of course

Maril: It’s true, it ends up being your favorite, so I think that’s great

Toni: Yeah. Or “The Watch.” I was like, “I don’t wanna write about the watch.” Oh my god. And now, I, of course I love “The Watch,” so

Maril: But I think something interesting about you, as well, is you always find something around the episodes. You know what I mean? Something, a theme that you love. Um, like this one…

Toni: Yep

Maril: ...um, you know, I don’t know if the theme for you was Christmas, which we’ll get to

Toni: I think it was whisky.

Maril: (laughing) Whisky. You love whisky.

Toni: Oh, by the way, I have to say uh, we didn’t, we, uh, how could we not have a whisky for “Freedom and Whisky?” But…

Maril: I’m sorry, it’s my fault

Toni: ...the reason it’s, it’s Maril’s fault. She loves gin and tonics, that’s her favorite drink, so we...

Maril: I do, I love a good gin and tonic. And, we do have a Scottish um, uh, a Scottish gin, uh, Hendrick’s. Um, in honor, so.

Toni: So we are drinking, let’s cheers

Maril: Mixing it up here, mixing it up

Toni: Gin and tonic. Cheers

Maril: Yeah, if you hear that crinkle, that’s what it is

Toni: Out of copper mugs

Maril: Slàinte mhath.

Toni: Mmm.

[7:13] Maril: Now, I will say about, you know, I love um, this relationship um, with Claire and Joe. I, I do, one thing I do regret is I do love in the book that little moment um, where Claire finds Joe reading the trashy uh, romance novel.

Toni: Oh, yeah

Maril: We did try to get that in here somewhere…

Toni: Yeah

Maril: ...it just organically didn’t fit in. But um, I just love this friendship. I just think it’s so special.

Toni: Yeah. Yeah, it’s really cool. It’s neat, neat to see them together. They share an office. Um..

Maril: And he calls her Lady Jane. I think it’s also such a special relationship because, obviously, two people who um, felt like outsiders um, you know, and didn’t fit in here, and really bonded. They shared a great friendship. And also, there were a couple times, I think, when the network asked us if um, we were going to do any sorts of hints of a romance between Joe and Claire and we were very very strongly opposed to that because we love the idea of a man and a woman being true friends…

Toni: Right

Maril: ...and then she can go to him as a true friend as opposed to any sort of romantic undertones.

Toni: Right. You’ll see the little Christmas tree over (Maril laughs) in the corner of their office and um, Christmas, I have to say, was added to the episode last minute, because I had written it and, even though I loved it, uh, I just felt there was something missing that was this underlying uh, layer of emotion that, that somehow came up with the idea of let’s make it the holiday. I think it was, oh yeah, when we wanted to use, I wanted very much to use the moon orbit…

Maril: Oh, right

Toni: ...on TV and we’re very, you know, we’re very sticklers for authenticity and when we looked up the uh, when this moon orbit was, um, it was on two days before Christmas eve. And so, I remember calling Matt uh, in Scotland and going, “Alright, the episode’s done, it’s written, I’m about to send it in,” uh, but um, and it was very close to shooting there and I said, “Just one change. Can it be, can it be Christmas?”

Maril: Which, everyone cried

(laughing)

Toni: Oh my god, there was a long silence on the end of there and he’s like, “You know we’re like two days from shooting?” And I’m like, “Yeah, I know, but Gary Steele, all those guys, they’re great, they can do it,” and, God bless them, they pulled it off. But I was waiting, you know, I was waiting on pins and needles for several days before he called me back and I just picked up the phone and I remember he said, “It’s beginning to look a lot like Christmas.” (laughs) And I just practically burst into tears and said, “Oh god, thank you, thank you,” because I feel it, that having it be the holidays really made this episode work.

Maril: Yeah, it is special. Now a lot of people probably ask, Toni, why we chose to switch this part of the story up as well, because obviously in the books, they go uh, to Scotland. Roger doesn’t come to visit them. Um, obviously we did that for a number of reasons, some of them production because unfortunately production does kind of, um, you know, um, lead us to do things sometimes, um, uh, I think we lost our location, potentially. Um, we also thought it would be kind of an interesting change up, actually…

Toni: Yeah

Maril: ...to um, keep the story the same but just mix it up a little bit and, and bring him out as, as you said, that Roger wanted his first American Christmas.

Toni: Yeah. I mean his father’s passed away, he’s longing for family. He feels very close to these people, who ironically, you know, he only recently met, but they went through such a, you know, such an ordeal together, you know, when all these secrets came spilling out about Claire and her past, um, that it sort of accelerated the bond between all of them. Um, including the romantic bond with Brianna and we just wanted to, to kind of get into that. And we thought it’d be cool if he showed up and came with this news for Claire that she’s not at all prepared to hear.

[10:48] Maril: Yeah. But it’s interesting that sometimes um, you know, unfortunately production does sometimes force us to make some interesting choices that, at first you freak out about it, but quite honestly, it sometimes does kind of push us down a direction that is surprising and kind of fun and a little bit of a twist...

Toni: Exactly

Maril: ...um, on things, which is, is the case here. And obviously, we, you know, to be able to use the Boston apartment again (laughs)

Toni: Yeah

Maril: It’s, uh, and the Christmas um. But I also love this Claire/Roger relationship.

Toni: Yeah

Maril: Um, I think they have such a unique, interesting bond, um, we did talk a lot about (laughing) if that was awkward that Brianna left, left Roger there. She was just like, “See ya later.”

Toni: Yeah

Maril: Poor Roger

Toni: Yeah, but Claire kind of gets it. She’s like, “Ah, I don’t think you only came for Christmas, right?”

Maril: (laughing) Yeah, Claire gets it, Brianna doesn’t

Toni: Yeah. He’s just so cute. Oh my gosh. Aww

Maril: Yeah, everyone looks good in this, shout out, obviously to our um, hair and makeup team here. Claire looks um,

Toni: Oh, she’s, she looks fantastic

Maril: So of the moment

Toni: Um, Annie, and Anita and uh, our..

Maril: Yeah, hair, makeup, and costume, it’s just…

Toni: ...and costume..

Maril: ...and Gary Steele, obviously. This is a great looking set and um, it’s just so authentic. I feel like a lot of times on Twitter and Instagram people say, “Oh my god, my mom was wearing that,” or, “Oh my god, my mom’s hair was exactly like that,” or, “My dad had that coat,” and uh, whenever I see those kind of comments I just feel like, um...

Toni: Yeah. She looks like Jackie. Uh, you know, Jackie Kennedy and, she’s just elegant. She just, she looks great in anything.

[12:35] Maril: So does, so does, uh, Richard, of course. (laughs) Can’t give uh, and not give Richard a little compliment. But I’m trying to think, you know, when we were talking about this episode, obviously, um, just for a frame back to where we started, it was kind of a hard episode for us because um, we were kind of trying to decide about Brianna and Claire and um, is that selfish of a woman to um, ask uh, her daughter to go back in time, to go, um, you know, reunite with her great love, and is that selfish of, of someone or, do you have the right to kind of pursue your own happiness..

Toni: Right

Maril: ...and, what does that mean to be a mom?

Toni: I, I feel like the book didn’t go as deeply into that, that particular dilemma as maybe it would have, and I wanted to explore that. And I think all of us felt strongly, especially you and I, that there’s no way Claire could go, go back and do this unless it was okay with Brianna.

Maril: Yeah

Toni: And um, I don’t think she ever even asks Brianna in, in the show. It’s more, in fact, she tries to talk Brianna out of it, and we’ll see that scene coming up a little later but, um, no, she, this is not, she had stopped looking for Jamie. She had given up and reconciled, she has a pretty good life, very nice apartment, as we know, a great job that she loves. And when Roger appears, and he’s so thrilled, I mean I love that, you know, I said he’s a dog with a bone and that’s, he’s just, he, he found this and

Maril: Yeah, but it’s great here, though, also, we kind of decided that obviously, you know, your first, your first thought is, “Oh, she’d be so excited,” but we felt like, at some point just to protect herself she had to close the door and, and, you know, just like we’ve seen Jamie do and Claire at various times in their lives, just to kind of protect themselves from the hurt she’d have to say, “I’ve closed the door, he’s dead. I’m just gonna forget about him.”

Toni: She, she can’t go through that again. She can’t get her hopes up and then not, and then find out that he’s dead or, you know, there’s no chance of going back. And, and she has such a life here now that, even with Frank gone, could she leave her daughter? I mean, that’s, that’s, we wanted to make it kind of a, you know, that, put her in the, in a rock and a hard place where, do you choose your daughter or your love? Especially when the daughter is the daughter of the man you love, um..

Maril: Toni, would you be able to make that decision?

[14:56] Toni: Oh, I, I, I, I would, I don’t think I could leave my, my kid for anything, or anyone. Um, so, I very much wanted to highlight uh, those, you know, choices here. And I think, you know, Cait just does such a beautiful job of bringing all those emotions to the, to the forefront. I mean, you just see how tortured she is through this whole episode, and really that’s what it’s about, it’s about the, you know, the theme of the episode, and we always talk about what is this episode about, is Claire thinking, “How can I let go of my daughter,” and the daughter, Brianna, feeling like, “How do I, you know, let, can I let my mom go?” And they both have made huge sacrifices for each other

Maril: Yeah. But she also has a life here, in terms of, I mean, she’s worked so hard to become a doctor and now she’s going back to a time that um, she can’t really do what she does now. Although we’ve often said, so many times we talk about in the room about how um, in a weird way she so much, has so much more freedom back in the 1700s than she ever would have here.

Toni: That’s right, that’s right.

Maril: Where even, and I think we saw shades of that earlier this season, about how, you know, everyone just felt like she couldn’t do it and

Toni: Yeah, the sexism. Ironically, she faces less sexism, in some ways, uh, back in the, in the 18th century and surely because Jamie is a progressive man and doesn’t, you know, pidgeon hole her life that, um

Maril: But there’s also so many ballsy women (laughing) in the 1700s, I mean, Jenny, um…

Toni: That’s right

Maril: ...you know, Mrs. Fitz, um, Laoghaire, I mean there’s, we’ve had no shy violets, Diana has no shy violets in the 1700s.

Toni: No.

[16:39] Maril: You know, we had to, I mean, and once again I felt, you know, we felt like there had to be a struggle here, about um

Toni: Oh yeah, that’s why we, I mean, the opening title card was Claire painting that ornament and we, you know, each episode we choose a title card that sort of embodies what the episode is, and I though, you know, Claire, you know, once you make an ornament for somebody that says, “Brianna’s 1st Christmas,” that’s, you’re starting a tradition there that...

Maril: Or you make a dreidel

Toni: ...you know, or you make a dreidel. (Maril laughs) That’s right. Hanukkah, Hanukkah’s in there

Maril: Yes

Toni: Um, you have a, a holiday tradition with your family and, and that thing hangs on the tree and, it’s just very hard to sort of um, leave all that behind. You know, leave that behind, and I think that’s, you know, here’s a, a, here’s a moment where she’s wrestling with that. She’s got the pearls um, that we...

Maril: Oh, the pearls. We fought very hard for the pearls. (laughs)

Toni: Yeah, we saw her get the pearls, that’s right. I, actually, we didn’t have the pearls in the script and I believe it was you that came to us…

Maril: Yeah, there’s certain things

Toni: ...and said, “Ahem, the pearls are gonna come into play later! You need to plant them in there because you don’t have them.”

Maril: Yeah, you know what, I know people, fans, probably don’t think we pay attention to these things, but there are certain things we really want to do, that we aren’t able to do. The pearls, certainly the um, carving the initial, the initial carvings on the hand

Toni: Sure, yeah

Maril: You know, things that we couldn’t do for some reason but we really want to get them in, and the pearl’s the perfect example of something we, we finally got in

Toni: And we, we, we worked real hard to get, you know, um..

Maril: We killed a few people, but that’s okay

Toni: We killed a few people, we got Fiona, we got Fiona to give her back the pearls uh, in the last episode so that she could um, have them here. And, uh

[18:21] Maril: Now you love this scene, right? This scene, this, um

Toni: (laughs) I do, I love, I fought to get this scene in

Maril: Something we might see later? A little easter egg maybe?

Toni: Possibly, book fans might just uh, uh, suss out why this scene is there, but, I

Maril: I’ve often, I, do you ever, uh, have you wondered, reading the books and, and, obviously with this scene, if, if Diana meant to, that Claire has some sort of, clairvoyant kind of touch/feel?

Toni: Well, I, obviously I think, she’s someone that went through the stones, so I think she is a person that has um, otherworldly, you know, aspects to her, and I think she does um, you know, she senses things. I think that’s part of what makes her a good doctor, too. They talk about that in the book, how she’s a great diagnostician. Is that how you say that word? Diagnostician. Um, but she, she has kind of a sixth sense for um, you know, feel, you know, feeling what’s wrong with people and how to fix it, and that’s talent. It’s part of being a doctor. It’s not just skill it’s um, it’s being able to, you know, connect with people and it, it’s part, it’s part skill and part art, and part magic.

Maril: Part magic, I like that

Toni: Yeah, I mean surgery, going into someone’s body, to have the, you know, kind of personality where you can take on that kind of responsibility and the confidence to, to, to go inside a human being and fix them uh, is, is enormously admirable and I think we love that about Claire, you know

Maril: Yeah. I think you’re right, I, I think it takes a certain type of person and uh

Toni: I couldn’t, I couldn’t

Maril: Oh my god, are you kidding? No way. No. (laughing) That’s why we do what we do.

Toni: (laughs) No. And we have a lot of help from our Dr. Claire, our own medical advisor’s named Dr. Claire and uh, a little ser, serendipity there, but she’s wonderful so, you know, basically I write, you know, “Put operation here.” And I call her up and I’m like, she’s like, “Do you want a liver, do you want a kidney? What do you want it to be?” And um,

[20:28] Maril: Yeah, Dr. Claire always comes to our set from like, the emergency room, she’s uh, an emergency room doctor

Toni: Yeah, she’s an emergency room, you know, and we, we’re calling up, we’re like, “Hey, we got an emergency. No, it’s not life or death, but it’s Outlander, so, please come.” And um, luckily she comes on her days off and helps us out. Um, and she’s a really important part of the, of the team. I think uh, I like when she talks to Joe here because he’s one of the few people that she’s told about Jamie, but of course, leaving out the time travel part of it, but he knows that she had a love um, you know, in another time, back in Scotland and um, in another time of her life, um, and he encourages her.

Maril: Yeah. I don’t remember how we picked this particular clip, um, I can’t remember if Matt suggested it or Ron or um, it was one of them anyway but um, someone liked the idea of Roger being kind of a TV fan, um, as he came here

Toni: Well, I think Matt, Matt did come up with it because he did come up with having her, him watch at the funeral of doc, of um…

Maril: Oh, right, yes, yes, yes

Toni: ...of um, the Reverend, he’s watching um, The Avengers and here he’s watching Doctor, Doctor, wait, Doctor Who? Um…

Maril: It’s such an awkward scene, isn’t it? Poor

Toni: Yeah, and uh, actually, Alicia found that clip and actually, although this is interesting, that, yeah, our post department and um, headed by Alicia and Mikey, they found this clip and it’s the actual episode that played on that actual day, which I think is December 23rd, um, or December 22nd, uh, of that year. And this is the actual episode. And then we watched the episode and picked this part, and the episode was actually about time travel, and about a woman going back in time. And we’re like, “Okay, that’s a weird coincidence.”

Maril: Well Doctor Who um, uh, is all to blame for Outlander, or to thank for Outlander, since obviously that’s where Diana got her um, watching a Doctor Who episode got her um, idea for doing Jamie and time traveling.

Toni: Right. Now these are, this is Glasgow University and, and they’re famous for their cloisters uh, which is this beautiful architecture on, on the campus. We’re playing this as Harvard University and of course when we, when we looked up Harvard and the buildings at Harvard, they have noi, no cloisters. Nothing even remotely in this kind of gothic structure so, I’m sure I’m gonna get some uh, some uh, teasing from my uh, I have a few friends who went to Harvard. They’re gonna go, “What?! Where is this?”

[23:12] Maril: Well actually, actually Harvard also wouldn’t let us use any of their signage, so boo Harvard

Toni: No, so uh, oh, well, um..

Maril: But actually, originally in this episode um, we had, or you had um, um, them following the Freedom Trail.

Toni: Mmm. Oh my god, I totally forgot that

Maril: And we just realized we couldn’t, we totally realized

Toni: That’s why I’m glad you’re here

(laughing)

Maril: I’m earning my keep, um

Toni: You are. Have another gin!

Maril: We realized that we couldn’t, I don’t think we could recreate it in the time

Toni: Right. We, well we tried, actually uh, they were very um, game and, about it and up for it, they, they David, David Brown and Matt, they sent me some mockups, I remember, what, of the

Maril: Yeah, poor Gary Steele

Toni: Yeah, Gary Steele, they made a little red brick trail, and I said, “All it has to be is a, a few bricks through the, through a park and we can just say, ‘Hey, look at the Boston tea harbour over there!’ and we can just point off in the distance.” So, so they did give it a try and, but I thought it would be cool because, you know, the theme being freedom and whisky that we had, you know, the Freedom Trail because this is a, a bit about freedom, you know. Freedom for Claire, freedom for Brianna who, you know, most of her life has followed in her father’s footsteps and chosen history when it really wasn’t her thing but she admired him. And that’s kind of, kind of finding out that she had this different father has brought up a lot of duality in her feelings, because she’s kind of like, “Well now it kind of makes sense why I didn’t really, you know, I can’t really get into history and I always felt like I was maybe in the wrong thing,” and she’s, this is the beginnings of her realizing that um, what she really loves is engineering and building and architecture. Um, but yeah, and it makes her feel, you know, guilty to um, you know, like it’s betraying Frank if she, if she explores the side of her that might connect to Jamie Fraser.

[25:01] Maril: But also, I mean, that’s something we also talked about, it’s like anyone who has a stepparent, um, it’s, there’s always a struggle between, you know, um, how do you, how are you close to your stepparent and close to your natural parent, it’s, it, are you betraying the other one, and quite honestly it’s nature versus nurture.

Toni: Yeah, yeah

Maril: You know, Frank raised her, she is a lot like Frank uh, in many ways, but um, um, I feel like um, actually, looking at that plaque of um, the first um, the first uh, person to receive this fellowship is actually Emily, our researcher

Toni: Oh yeah, our researcher, Emily. We plea, we engraved her name as the first recipient, and then the director shot it and cut out the bottom of the plaque so her name can’t be seen but she did get the scholarship (chuckles)

Maril: Yeah. I don’t think my name has ever been on…

Toni: We’ll have to get, we’ll have to put your name…

Maril: ...any kind of, memorialized anywhere. I mean, thankfully it hasn’t been on a tombstone or anything

Toni: Well, we should, maybe we should have named the mistress Maril, but, here’s Sandy

Maril: Oh Sandy. Actually, originally, also, Sandy’s name was Mandy…

Toni: Oh, it was

Maril: ...which I made us change because um, uh, for future book readers that will mean something too

Toni: Because of Barry Manilow, I thought? Because I know you like Barry

Maril: No no, it means something to people who’ve read the series. There’s a reason why we couldn’t do that

Toni: Ahh. Oh, okay. I don’t know cause I don’t read ahead but, I know that in the book there’s not a specific mistress, it’s, um…

Maril: It’s many mistresses

Toni: ...suggested that, that he fooled, that Frank fooled around or had, you know, affairs with students. We didn’t feel, we didn’t want to make him this guy that just screwed around. We thought, you know, he’s, he’s really been a hero to raise Brianna, he’s, he’s done right by Claire and, you know, we thought it was more interesting if he did have a woman that, that loved him very much. And what I really love about this scene is this is maybe one of the only times we, we call Claire out on, on her shit. You know?

Maril: Right. But also, you know, we talked many times about the fact that, you know, if Frank, you know, if we had tried to play more of the racist Frank and the Frank um, um, that didn’t believe in Claire, um, some of those things, I do think it would be easy to understand why Claire never loved Frank back and, and wanted um, to go for Jamie and, and couldn’t forget about Jamie. To me, actually, it means, it, it means a stronger Jamie and Claire bond, the fact that Frank was a good guy and she still couldn’t let go of the love of her life, Jamie. To me that makes it more interesting. It would’ve been an easy choice had Frank been a bad guy and she’d just, of course we’d understand.

Toni: Yeah, that’d be totally easy. Here, you know, he’s a good guy

Maril: More complex

Toni: He has a good woman that loves him, he might have been happy with. I mean, I don’t blame Claire for it so much because Frank did, Frank chose this, and he could’ve left but

Maril: No, she wants, uh, but also she, but she wants, I mean, to me, I don’t blame Claire also because she, you know, Claire wants a father for her daughter, that, to me that’s like the ultimate sacrifice that she, that she chose to live in an unhappy marriage because she wanted a family unit for her daughter and she wanted her daughter to have a dad

Toni: Yeah, but, but at the same time, when Sandy says, “You, you should’ve let him go,” there’s a part of us, I hope, that will feel like, “Yeah, maybe at some point,” I mean, he, they could’ve split up but his, Frank’s fear is that she would’ve kept Brianna from him, and he loved Brianna so much and back then a father would not have gotten custody of the daughter and like he said in the, in the last episode that, uh, written by Matt that was so wonderful last week he says, “Forgive me if I can’t count on your word, Claire,” because she’s broken promises to him. And so they’re kind of trapped together in this marriage and I think he’ll always love Claire, and if Claire would’ve said, at any point, I’m, I’m all in, I think he probably would’ve left Sandy. But it’s sad, to me it’s very heartbreaking to see that this woman, Sandy, finally gets a chance to confront Claire and say, you know, be in her face and say, “Look, you kept him from happiness and you gotta own that,” and, I think uh, Caitriona does. And the look on her face when Sandy confronts her, I really

[28:48] Maril: But, I mean, they both break promises cause certainly Frank had promised Claire he wouldn’t, he wouldn’t flaunt his affair or affairs um, and when he brought Sandy, or Sandy showed up to the graduation

Toni: Well, he didn’t bring her there…

Maril: I know but that’s very...

Toni: …she came, she came to pick him up and he thought nobody would be home

Maril: ...yes, but it’s very ballsy, but, I think that’s what’s interesting about this relationship. It’s like, you know I do think, quite honestly, Frank’s great love ends up being Brianna.

Toni: Yeah, for sure, for sure

Maril: And that’s what makes it so interesting that he, he’ll never, Claire will never reciprocate his love so, his great love ends up being a child that’s not even his, which is beautiful.

Toni: Right. Well, and, and here we see that Brianna kind of knew about Sandy because I saw some people asking online like, “Brianna, did she, you know, did she know what was going on?” She certainly must have sensed that there was, um, you know, a disconnect in her parents. Even though they put on a good show and they did, they were cordial to each other, in fact, warm and friendly and loving at times, she knew there was, something was off. And when she met this woman in a bookstore or whatever, we wanted to demonstrate that, you know, inside she knew something so that, that when she finds out about this Jamie Fraser thing it kind of all makes sense now and, and here, you know, she, she feels bad and she’s telling her mom, “Hey, you know, god, dad must have hated me because he had to look at me and think of Jamie and maybe even you, you had to look at me and think of the man that you really loved.” And suddenly she feels guilty like, “Did I cause everyone all this unhappiness?”

Maril: Well, of course, if that’s, if you find out you’re adopted or, or, or something like this, um, you know, when you’re at this age it’s, it’s earth shattering. But I do think, to me, I, you know, some people feel like Claire was selfish to stay, to stay in this marriage but I disagree, I, I feel like, once again, it’s the ultimate sacrifice to stay in this marriage where maybe you’re not happy because you want your child to have a good life. Although I do think, you know, something I think we tried to do in this episode is show that Claire and Brianna are coming closer together because I do think there’s, you know, in a weird way, because of medical school and because of the Jamie issue, um, I, I do think there’s been a distance between Claire and Brianna in the books and in the series and I think now that Brianna knows, I think we’re finally seeing them have a true mother/daughter close relationship.

[31:07] Toni: Yeah, I think the wall between them has come down now that the truth is out and ironically they’re closer than ever before, and now she has to think about um, leaving her. Yeah, the idea from this scene, uh, I believe might have even originated with uh, in the next book they’re, I believe they’re watching the actual moon walk, the walk on the moon and, we always try to look up, you know, historical things that were happening during that time and I believe I was looking up and um, you know, events and news of the, of that era and saw that there was this uh, Christmas eve uh, telecast of, of orbiting the moon and being able to see the moon, to look back and see the earth from the moon for the first time. So um, there’s a name for it, which I can’t remember now. Too many gin and tonics, but, anyway I just thought, you know, it was a perfect, such a perfect metaphor for Claire’s journey, how she’d been somewhere literally further than the moon and, you know, to have them talking about how do the astronauts make a trip like that and then just come back to normal life because you’ve seen the world from a different perspective and um, it was just kind of to illustrate Claire thinking about, “Should I go back or is it enough to have gone once? Because how many people even get to go once? Um, can I be still, can I be happy with that? Should I leave it alone or should I go back to Jamie?” And that’s what she’s thinking about here.

Maril: Well also, I think the first time wasn’t a choice. Uh, first time happened uh, without her realizing it, obviously, and she didn’t know how. This was an actual choice to make. It’s um, which is a much different thing. You’re choosing to go back um, and, you know, you’re leaving your child, you’re leaving your profession, you don’t know if you can make it back, um, she has no way of knowing if she can get back, and if she’d find Jamie.

Toni: No, and, and, and she says to Bria, you know, Brianna, she’s like, “It’s not like an elevator. You can’t just jump on and off,” and she’s trying to get it, you know, Brianna’s already said, “Go, I want you to go,” and Claire’s like, “I, you know, I need you to really know what this means. It’s kind of like a death, you know, we may never see each other again,” and how could you look at your mother or your daughter and say, “I’m gonna give up never seeing, you know, you again.” Um

Maril: But that’s what’s so interesting and what the debate was about. It is like, at what point do you get to choose, as a woman, um, you know, you’re always going to be a mother…

Toni: Right

Maril: ...but is there any point when you say, “I, I still have needs in life. I still have wants and desires,” and, and um, and is that selfish? And, and this, because, you know, some people might see this as a selfish choice, to go back.

Toni: Well, I mean they, I think they could see that and I think, you know, it’s true you can’t just say, um, “My kid doesn’t need me any more, they’re grown up,” because you always need your parents. But at the same time Claire’s sacrificed so much and put in twenty years of raising her and, also part of it is Brianna wants Claire to go back and tell Jamie about her.

Maril: Exactly, yep

Toni: Because now she wants to connect with her father and in a way, that’s a way for her to connect uh, with her father

Maril: Because also, obviously, Claire knows that Brianna was born and survived and everything but obviously Jamie doesn’t and, and there’s a longing there that hasn’t been fulfilled.

[34:36] Toni: Oh my god, I just thought of something really funny. (Maril laughs) Okay I’m going way back now the, the memories are

Maril: Is this your childhood?

Toni: No,no! (laughing) Back to the beginning of the season

Maril: Oh

Toni: I think, wasn’t there a version of this where Brianna is wanting to, uh, discover her roots and know more about Jamie and she goes around the country in a VW van?

(laughing)

Maril: Wow, you’re absolutely right and, we nixed that story, thank god

Toni: Yeah, we, at one point when we, we wanted her to like, take a backpacking trip through the Highlands and, you know, see the Highland cows and, and learn to speak Gàidhlig and um

Maril: I think it was our, it was the same theme of kind of Brianna not settling back in the life and what would that, what would that look like?

Toni: Right.

Maril: Like, if she came back, if you found out your father was a 1700, you know, lived in the 1700s and was a Highlander, you know, what would that mean?

Toni: You’d wanna, yeah. You’d wanna…

Maril: I love this scene, by the way, um, we fought very hard to keep this one in too because um, you know, uh, I, I love Joe’s line when he’s like, “You’re, you’re an attractive white female with big hair and a big ass”

(laughing)

Maril: I’m paraphrasing

Toni: She’s like, “That’s just what I needed to hear.” Um, well he’s telling her she’s sexy because, and I love this because, act, you know, obviously, Caitriona Balfe is, is stunningly gorgeous but even the most gorgeous woman, you know, if you hadn’t seen your love in twenty years….

Maril: Oh, of course

Toni: ...you’re gonna go, “Hey, you know, do I still have it?” You know? “Do I got it going on?” You know? “My hair’s a little gray, I’ve got a little belly,” well, she doesn’t even have a belly but, all those things that would make you have a little bit of insecurity and doubt, whether you want that person, you know they’re, they’re gonna have a picture of you in their mind of when they last saw you, and you don’t want them to be disappointed in you. So I love that she’s having a human moment here

Maril: Oh, of course. And Joe is like, “Is this a test?” And by the way, I said, “big ass,” when I meant great ass.

(laughing)

Toni: Great ass. Big ass, great ass, same thing

[36:36] Maril: Well, you would go to a person, I mean, that’s what, once again, one of the reasons we fought very hard to kind of push back against that note of any sort of flirtation or romantic feelings because it is someone she can, you know, Joe is in a happy marriage so, you know, he can give her an accurate, but also, this is something we discussed a lot, it’s like, Claire as a modern um, confident woman, how much doubt would she have? And I, I do think, you know and, and, certainly we had this discussion with Caitriona who, who might have felt a little bit like Claire was very confident um, in how she looked and wouldn’t worry about you know, whether her hair was gray or not, but quite honestly we do feel like Claire as a character is still human. She’s not, and all of us, no matter how confident you are, you still have, you know, self doubt, as anyone does

Toni: Right and, and, you know. Oh yeah, Claire’s thinking about all the things she would’ve brought if, if she, if she’d had all these things the first time uh, she had a book on the history of Scotland it could’ve come in handy

Maril: Although we did talk about what she would do if she went back in time with the book. That uh, she’d have to ditch it quickly since uh

Toni: She’d have to hide that one

Maril: Yeah, exactly. But this was also, I mean, certainly, you know, Claire, unlike Geillis um, doesn’t really think about the time travel or going through the stones aspect as much, um...

Toni: Right

Maril: ...obviously Geillis had a whole book and did a lot of research and, you know, we have discussed many times about Claire, how she went through the first time because, quite honestly, in the books Diana doesn’t talk about her going through the stone. Um, that is something we kind of had to go back and retrofit

Toni: Or making a sacri, or making a sacrifice um.

Maril: Yeah, because Claire seems to do it without anything whereas Geillis does seem to think that she needs something

Toni: Right. But then we realized she had lost her watch, she, also...

Maril: No, we put that in

Toni: ...the, yeah

Maril: We put that in, no, but we put a stone in to explain it, but really in the book

Toni: We put the ring in on the second time she comes back, that she takes Jamie’s father’s ring and the stone is lost and um, I came up with the idea that, you know, one of, one of the gifts that Brianna could give her would be her birthstone and that that would be sweet. And we looked up, I think Brianna’s birthday’s in November and it was topaz

Maril: Topaz. (laughing) Which we got in a lot of uh, Caitriona and I got in a lot of uh, fun fights about how you pronounce topaz because uh, uh, I think Americans pronounce it differently. Topaz.

Toni: Maybe it, in England it’s topaz?

Maril: Topaz. Um, but she would say, and she’s right, she says it the correct way.

Toni: Ah.

Maril: But, uh [39:08] Toni: And now Roger, and then I mean, how is she going to carry all this, right? So that sparked some discussions with costume and um

Maril: Right. But we always knew, I mean, certainly in the book, obviously, she goes the Jessica Gutenberg route and Terri obviously…

Toni: Right, she buys a dress

Maril: ...didn’t want to do that and wanted to do something she felt was a little more um, that Claire would put a little more thought into and, and certainly we agreed that um, she wouldn’t probably go out to a store and, and grab something so, um

Toni: No, when you can make, well, why buy a dress when, when Terri can…

Maril: Exactly, make one

Toni: ...can make, make us one? And I think, you know, she had this idea that Claire would have all these secret hidden pockets to hide things in and um

Maril: Which you would, I mean, I think that’s what, what’s great about going back the second time it’s a choice, it’s like, you know, and that’s the idea to take penicillin, which was great and um, and you know we did go back and forth about whether or not we thought Claire could sew something like this, but that’s also why we added some lines in there about um

Toni: Well, being a mom she probably made costumes for her kid and..

Maril: Doing her costumes in the past and, and she’s a surgeon for christ’s sake so she makes them. She has to be good with her hands

Toni: Yeah, so she makes the, the bat dress. And we used the bat theme.

Maril: Yes, yes

Toni: That was Ron’s idea. It’s a little whacky for Outlander, but we embraced it and it’s, it’s a pretty cool moment

Maril: This also, you know, this um, Clairol moment, as we like to call it, with Claire, you know, was also very difficult to do in production because we obviously had shot quite a bit with Claire with gray hair and then kind of had to make decision early, um, obviously we shoot things out of order quite a bit um, and had to make the decision to take the gray out um, and once again it was a, a big discussion about that since um, you know, it’s a question of whether or not Claire as a character um, would feel that um, she would do that. But we all felt that was a very human moment.

Toni: Yeah

Maril: The Clairol moment.

Toni: Yeah. They look beautiful with or without Clairol.

Maril: Yeah. Also a lot of people, I think, would ask why we decided um, not to, once again, have them in Scotland, um, and why we wouldn’t see um, you know, Claire going through the stones and Brianna asking if she could go through. Um, you know, several things went into this discussion, obviously, um, we had decided to bring Roger out as well, you know, the location where we film the stones um, our Craig na Dun location is very tough to get to um, and weather, um, you know, weather contingent and um, we couldn’t go up which forced us to make another decision. And actually I love, it was your idea obviously to have, see her stepping through on the puddle?

Toni: Yeah, we were trying to think of a way that she might um, go through without going to the stones and I had read the, the prologue in this book um, where it talked about Claire has this beautiful monologue about going through puddles and, and how when she was little she looked at puddles and wondered if they, you could just endlessly fall through them and so I thought, “Oh, I’ll steal that. This’ll be perfect,” and we’ll do a po, we called it the puddle transition where she’ll step out of the cab, you know in the, in the 20th century into the carriage, you know, in the streets of Edinburgh in the 18th century and um, and it’s just the like, the feeling of falling through one of those childhood puddles. Um, and how, how scary that can be but she’s not scared any more, um, because she’s been through the abyss. So, it worked, it, it, we thought it would be actually cheaper and easier to shoot than going up to the stones, but I think with all the special effects and all the, the machinations of making it work, it ended up maybe being more

Maril: Well actually, because the actual moment where she steps into the puddle actually, um, we had to film in South Africa (chuckles)

[42:55] Toni: Oh, that’s right! Okay

Maril: Yeah, yeah, so it ended up, because for some reason we couldn’t capture it um, before we left Glasgow we had to do a very tight shot of, of a cab...

Toni: Yeah, they had to get a cab, we had to find a yellow cab...

Maril: ...in, in Capetown

Toni: ...in Capetown, South Africa...

Maril: Which is crazy

Toni: ...and reshoot just the foot coming out of the cab so part of it, part of the cab ride is Glasgow for Boston, and part of it is actually South Africa

Maril: We’re an international production

Toni: Oh, we truly are

Maril: But actually it’s kind of, it’s kind of fitting in some ways that it can span two, two countries

Toni: Yeah, she went to Edinburgh by way of the Cape (laughs)

Maril: Right, exactly. This was also a very emotional scene, you know, trying to figure out, you know, that goodbye here as opposed to at the stones when at the books, obviously, you know, Brianna and Roger surprise Claire at the stones. She sneaks off…

Toni: Right

Maril: ...and um, and so this was a much more planned

Toni: Yeah we, we thought, you know, Claire, I think we, that she’s gone through the stones a variety of ways, you know, a magical way, a turbulent way, a heartbreaking way with Jamie and that this time she thought, “Maybe I’ll just go up there by myself. Besides, if I take my daughter with me I may change my mind at the last minute.”

Maril: Exactly

Toni: And, um, I love that she gives her the pearls, too, and she’s like, “Look,” you know, “wear them at your wedding, you know, because I’m not gonna be with you at your wedding now and I’m not, you know, but I’ll be there with you if you’re wearing these pearls,” and they’re also from Jamie so they’re a connection. Um, and uh, fans may realize that uh, those may show up in the future at some point

Maril: They might. I do love this coat here. Shoutout to Terri this um, actually and, and fans will recognize this um, this trenchcoat that Claire’s wearing is actually um, in our um, poster shots

Toni: Ah, yeah

Maril: This is the one where she goes up to the stones

Toni: Yeah

Maril: Ah, there’s your dog with the bone. That was like me with the books.

[44:45] Toni: That’s right. You were a dog with the bone uh, with these books and uh, there’d be no Outlander without Maril Davis and

Maril: I don’t know about that but someone else would be doing it

Toni: Uh, no one else could do it as, as well. I stand by that.

Maril: Well, I think the whole group is

Toni: Cause we just all, we had an amazing team, we all really love each other, really work well together, this is the, the, we’re just lucky

Maril: Everyone’s very passionate.

Toni: Very very passionate and that’s what unites us

Maril: Well that’s true, I mean, I think the fun thing about this show is we do enjoy talking about Outlander

Toni: We, we do. We talk about it twenty four hours a day, I mean, even on our lunch breaks or even when we’re not at work it’s just that’s, that’s what we’re passionate about

Maril: Now here’s another interesting thing that we debated about. Obviously um, you know, we will see her coming up, Claire back in the 1700s and obviously we, there was a lot of debate about um, whether or not to have this, the print shop moment, or the beginning of the print shop moment in this episode or in the next episode and um, and I think Matt came up um, I think there was questions about, “Oh, should, should we go as far as the bell? Should we go as far as her saying, ‘It’s me, Claire,’?” And then actually I think Matt came up with this, well we won’t say what we’re, we’re gonna do

Toni: Oh, right, we can’t say it. Yes! That’s right. Ah! Thank god you remembered that

Maril: (laughing) Too much gin and too many gin and tonics

Toni: But I think it was always that, we, we didn’t, yeah I’m cutting you off. (laughing) Um, I think we didn’t want to do, you know, a TV cliche moment where she stops right at the door and we, and we cut to next week or she comes in the door and there’s the bell, I don’t know

Maril: Well we did, actually, quite honestly, I did um, I love where we ended but I did, I did think ending on the bell would have been a cool moment too because for me it’s such like an, a, a classic, the bell of the print shop and then going in um

Toni: Right. Yeah, I think people are gonna be, I know they’ll be watching this episode holding their breath and wondering where it’s gonna end.

Maril: By the way, quick shoutout to Sophie Skelton here, I mean.

Toni: Oh yeah, she was great here and…

Maril: Heartbreaking here, I mean it’s

Toni: ...actually we went back and Matt shot this little piece because Sophie just kind of went from crying at the window to, “Here, have some pie!”

Maril: (laughing) “Have some boston creme pie.”

Toni: “Have some boston creme pie!” And we thought no, you need to see her. And also, I wanted Roger to wear a santa hat um, when he arrived on the doorstep. Matt wouldn’t let me, he thought that was dorky. I thought it was cute

Maril: Right. (laughing) Bah humbug, bah humbug.

Toni: So he actually put the, the santa hat on Sophie here and he said, “Alright, here’s your darn santa hat,” so I thought, I think it was, you know, sweet that they bond and they’re obviously making new family traditions and we

Maril: Is this one of your family traditions, Toni Graphia?

Toni: Uh, no. (laughs) We just eat a lot, um, I don’t think…

Maril: You don’t read at uh…?

Toni: ...I don’t think we read any um, no, we don’t read. We just, you know, eat

Maril: You don’t read A Christmas Carol?

Toni: No. No. That’s not, that’s not uh, I like to watch um, you know, Rudolph, maybe or the abominable snowman, one of those. Some of those Christmas movies but uh, this is, this is their new American Christmas and I think, we always talked about this as, you know, the moment she realizes the depth of her feelings for Roger. She’s looking at him, the fact that he was sensitive enough to come and kind of see that that’s what she needed was, you know, that this book was read to her when she was little and now both her parents are effectively dead, you know. And his parent is gone and dead too, now they have each other

Maril: But they also share, I mean, there’s a shared history here, you know what I mean? He’s the only one that knows her experience. But getting back to the print shop, um, you know

Toni: Well there is something very clever. We can’t give away what it is, but Matt, Matt came up with a great um, idea, uh, and, and you’ll see next, you’ll see it next week, so

Maril: But that’s next episode, which we won’t get to. Yeah, but here, also, and another shout out to um, you know, our visual effects team, um, you know, um, headed up by Richard Briscoe um, and our post department because, you know, obviously we come and most of this um, uh, street scape, when she steps in this puddle and, and the rest and it’s a pretty fabulous job. We did film in the, in and around the Royal Mile, but obviously, um, the Royal Mile doesn’t look now like it looked back in the 1700s

Toni: No. No.

Maril: Um, but finally, Claire, back in this time. Um, but I do think um, once again, I, I think going the bell would have been interesting but I do love that she goes all the way now, “It’s me, Claire,” and um, and Jamie fainting.

[49:13] Toni: I, I think it felt like the end of a certain journey because you don’t see Jamie at all and if you didn’t see him, somehow, all of this was for Jamie, all this angst that both she and Brianna went to was for Jamie, that moment, so if you ended on just a sort of a cliffhanger you wouldn’t get to, here’s the guy that it was all about and she made it um, you know

Maril: Yeah. Well also, Toni, um, another thing fans might be wondering about, which I did love in the book, and I’m sad we couldn’t do it, but the peanut butter sandwich

Toni: Oh yeah, yeah

Maril: And we, you know, the, um, and the reason we didn’t do it, quite honestly, um, even though we all love that moment and, and I love that part in the book where she unwraps the sandwich and uh…

Toni: The cellophane floats away

Maril: ....the taste of home and the, the oily peanut butter. But, the reason we didn’t do it is when we had Roger come out to Boston and um, we had Claire go alone and we didn’t see that moment at Craig na Dun we realized that, you know, she’d been traveling for…

Toni: For awhile

Maril: …(laughing) and that sandwich, sadly, um, would not have made it…

Toni: That sandwich is smooshed and uh, yeah, I think it was

Maril: ...it would have been um, yeah. So we couldn’t, even though we really wanted to do it we just couldn’t figure out a way to do it that it was um, we felt like it was realistic, but we did want her to

Toni: But we did want her to, uh, she touches the sign, I think that might have been in the book. Um, I really wanted her to look at her reflection in the glass and fix her, her face and her hair like she’s nervous about going in but the, just wasn’t, we couldn’t really see the window. But she still kind of, I love the moment when she reaches back and kind of touches her hair a little like she, she wants to make sure she looks good to go in

Maril: And by the way, this, for fans, is a um, is a real location off of the Royal Mile

Toni: That’s right, that’s right. This is in Edinburgh

Maril: Um, this is um, a real location that we used the exterior for um, that we ended up recreating um, on our backup

Toni: It’s not Carfax Close, but it’s a Close on…

Maril: Yeah, it is a Close

Toni: ...um, and that little was really there, he was the baker’s boy

(laughing)

Maril: He’s really from the 1700s

Toni: I think he’s still there so if you go, go looking for bread down in uh, the Royal Mile you might see him and, and ask where the print shop is

Maril: That’s kind of (unintelligible). And obviously, you know, um, I think we were looking forward to this moment, I mean, um…

Toni: Oh, yes.

Maril: ...you know, we obviously has, have spent the last five episodes with them apart and um. “Geordie, is that you?”

Toni: Ahh. Yeah

Maril: And actually there was some debate, I will say, about whether or not Claire needed to say, “It’s me, Claire.” Some people, we won’t name who…

Toni: Right, that’s right (laughing)

Maril: ...some people thought we should just end, “It’s me,” and uh…

Toni: And he would know her voice

Maril: ... and we fought really hard for “Claire,” just, one, because it’s a, a such an iconic book line, but also, to me, I just, you’d, I think, “It’s Claire,” you would say, “It’s me, Claire,” cause you would be a little nervous. He might have, in twenty years, you know what I mean? I think you wouldn’t even think about it, you’d just say it just nervously thinking he wouldn’t remember even though of course he would

Toni: Well I think that’s what’s adorable is, “It’s me, Claire,” like she had, would have to say that

Maril: Exactly when she doesn’t but that’s what’s so cute about it

Toni: Yeah. (chuckles) He does a, a great fall too

[52:18] Maril: He does, actually um, Sam has a good stunt

Toni: He did, he fell, he fell quite a few times and I remember in the editing room we, we just look at him falling over and over. “Is this the best fall? Is that the best fall?”

Maril: Though we also actually did worry about how honestly the faint would work in a TV show and it’s one of those things that in the book it works and in the TV show sometimes it can look comical

Toni: Yeah. When you read “faint,” you know, he, you know, we, we, we very much orchestrated that it would just be a drop

Maril: Yeah

Toni: Just a straight drop, not like a dramatic

Maril: And he did, Sam did an amazing job here, actually, to Sam’s um, faint acting. Um, he did a great faint and that actually works. I was a little nervous that it wouldn’t but uh, he really sells it

Toni: But the looks, both of them, aww, look at them

Maril: Aw, these two crazy kids back together

Toni: Aww. I hope

Maril: What?! That’s it?!

Toni: I know, “What?! Duh? Huh?!”

Maril: Um, well, shout out to Toni G. um…

Toni: Oh, thank you

Maril: ...for a fabulous episode, I mean um...

Toni: Ah, well, um…

Maril: ...two in a row, four and five, that is

Toni: ...everyone did an amazing job on these and I, I’m very proud um, of this one and this might be my favorite one of mine this season although...

Maril: Great season too. How do you choose? Of your kids?

Toni: ...how do you choose? Uh, four and five, and we have more coming up because uh, perhaps there’s another one later this season but no spoilers um, and I’m really looking forward to next week. I, I don’t think we have to, to make them promise to tune in next week. Do we even need to say, “Tune in next week,” or can we just say…?

Maril: (laughing) Yes. Exactly. Yes, we’re all looking forward to it. It’s a print shop episode. People say the print shop scene, I, I’m always confused about that, but it’s really the print shop episode. Um, but anyway

Toni: Yeah. Um, it’s an amazing episode, and um, we just can’t wait for you guys to see it

Maril: Yeah. And thank you for inviting me on to the couch to do the podcast

Toni: Oh I’m, I, I, I, you need to be here for all of them cause you remember more stuff than I do

Maril: (laughing) I don’t know, I think you and Matt have a great uh, uh, you do a great job

Toni: We have fun, um, and it’s, it, shout out to Matt who’s in Scotland right now and....

Maril: Yeah, so he couldn’t be here for this podcast

Toni: ...he couldn’t be here but you’ll, you’ll hear from him soon

Maril: Awesome. Goodbye all!

Toni: Goodnight everyone.

Transcribed 10/19/17 by Shelsy Joseph