Episode 222 - Discussion of 'Outlander' Episode 307 - Creme de Menthe

The Outlander Pod Episode 222: Discussion of ‘Outlander’ Episode 307 “Creme de Menthe”

Ginger: This podcast is in no way affiliated with the Starz production or Diana Gabaldon. All views expressed are solely our own.

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[0:16] Ginger Wiseman: Welcome to the Outlander Podcast where the men are kilted,

Summer Reynolds: ...the women are winsome..

Ginger: ...and the whiskey is neat. Welcome to episode 197 of the Outlander Podcast. I’m Ginger

Summer: And I’m Summer, and we are in love with all things Outlander.

[0:34] Ginger: Welcome to episode 222 of the Outlander Podcast. I’m Ginger

Summer: And I’m Summer and we are in love with all things Outlander.

Ginger: In this episode we’ll discuss Episode 307, “Creme de Menthe.” Emphasis on menthe (with a hard tsound at the end) and not menthe (with thsound at the end). But uh, first we have to include, of course, your words. So thank everyone for writing feedback. Here are your words, our listener feedback. And now we have listener feedback for Episode 306, “A. Malcolm.” First we hear from Amy D.

Amy: Hey Ginger and Summer, it’s Amy D. from Kentucky with some feedback on “A. Malcolm,” the print shop reunion. I could say so much, so so much. The reunion was everything I’d hoped for. And it was said in the live Facebook afterchat there was one big change and a couple of omissions that I didn’t love but the episode as a whole was just spectacular. I could go on and on about many things, but for the sake of not repeating the thoughts and feelings of probably everybody who’s listening, I thought I’d use this feedback message to talk about some of the small touches that I thought were really nice. The ink on Jamie’s fingernails. Kudos to the makeup folks for making his hands look like a printer’s hands would have looked. There were a couple of times in the bedroom scenes that I noticed the ink was missing, but hey, he was in the bedroom with Claire, so who cares? But the majority of the time when I noticed his hands there was ink around the edges of his nails which added to the overall authenticity of the episode and his character. I loved the firelight in the bedroom scenes. It was so romantic. And I thought that when Jamie got out of the bed and walked over toward the table with the firelight behind him, it was reminiscent of Claire’s fantasy about him back in episode two. I don’t know if that was an intentional callback to that fantasy or not but I thought it was a really nice moment. I loved the last hug that Fergus gave Claire. Or really, I just loved the whole scene between Fergus and milady, but the last hug as he was just about to go off with Jamie to tell him about Mr. Willoughby and he looked at Claire it and I was like, “I just have to hug you one more time!” And the smile on his face, oh, really nice touch and great delivery by Cesar. And even though this isn't a small thing, I know I’ve gone on and on and on and on about Sam’s performance this season but he seriously just keeps hitting it out of the ballpartk. He was amazing in his scenes without Caitriona. But just like I knew would happen, he continues to be just as amazing, perhaps even more so, with her. There is an energy when they are together that goes beyond anything the writers write or the directors direct. And Sam’s facial expressions in this episode, oh my gosh! Spot on! The misty eyes with the almost constant look of awe and disbelief. Well, I mean, I could watch him and talk about him all day long. He’s unbelievably hot and he does play the King of Men, but Sam Heughan is way more than just a sex symbol. He’s a damn fine actor. Well done, Sam. I hope the critics and the award show pundits are paying attention. We certainly are. And thanks again to Ginger and Summer for this awesome podcast and the great community you’ve created on social media. It’s so amazing to share this crazy Outlandermadness with all of you.

[3:50] Ginger: And now, Eileen P.

Eileen: Hi Ginger, hi Summer. This is Eileen P. from Melville, New York. I was so hoping Claire would revive Jamie with a peanut butter sandwich but my hopes were dashed. Fortunately I can think of a few scenarios where we can still see Claire whip out a peanut butter sandwich from a secret pocket. Don’t want to be spoilery, so you’ll just have to wait and see. Now onto the reunion. Apparently, although it was written in the script to do so, Sam chose not to have Jamie fall apart after seeing the photographs of Brianna. He chose to play those emotions internally and felt that falling apart would have been melodramatic. I can understand his choice. When he was living in the cave we saw Jamie break down in Jenny’s arms after Fergus’s hand was cut off. He was in despair. In this case it would have been different. It was more of a relief, knowing his child survived and seeing her grow up in photographs. But in a bittersweet way she was growing up without him. I think about when he was at Helwater. He had lost two children, Faith and Brianna and he said you always carry that loss with you, or something to that effect. I can see why, after seeing photos of Brianna, he would think of Willie, another lost child who he actually had a part in raising. Would you fall apart, given you’d been carrying this burden of lost children for years? Something that is part of your everyday existence? I think Jamie would have been used to holding those feelings in check. That said, I think I would have liked more of a pause to play the beat, along with a tear prick or maybe a bit more like a few tears rolling down his cheek to give a slight window into that internal struggle. Now Jamie and Claire are dealing with many feelings during this long awaited, and in Jamie’s case, surprising reunion. I have to say that Cait and Sam played the awkwardness so well. I loved the hesitancy of their first kiss and the head-nose knock when they were about to make love. I have to say, when I reunited with my lost love after twenty years, we knocked noses on our first kiss. Awkwardness happens.

[6:05] Ginger: Here’s Jo B.

Jo: Hi, it’s Jo from Melbourne saying, like everybody else, that I really liked this episode. Uh, I quite liked some of the changes uh, and the ones I didn’t like, at this point, I’ll wait to see what they do with them before we really go down the judgey path. I loved Jamie’s wrap, I think it’s very hipster, I think it’s very much his appropriating what he can wear of his new wardrobe for his own, I think it’s his new part, I think he can’t wear his kilt or his tartan, so he’s gone for adjusting his wardrobe as he can to make himself feel more comfortable and more confident as he strides around Edinburgh. Quite liked what they did with Fergus’s hand, although the hook would have been cool. I think it’s a really useful way of probably making it a lot more comfortable for the actor playing Fergus, it’ll be interesting to see where this goes. Thanks girls, bye!

[6:57] Ginger: Andrea P. writes: “‘A. Malcolm’ was worth the wait. I loved everything about this episode. There was so much dialogue straight from the book and I relished every scene. I especially liked all the comedic ibits that were included with Geordie spouting oft, spouting off about orgies, Fergus saying matter of factly how handsome he’s become, the whore’s breakfast banter and the knocking of heads with Claire and Jamie. The last episode was so emotionally heavy, this one had levity in it to allow us a breath of relief that Jamie and Claire are finally back together. I agree with both of you that I have noticed how Sam and Caitriona are showing us how their characters have matured through mannerisms and confidence, rather than distracting makeup effects, which really keeps us in the intimacy of the story. The inclusion of revealing Willie at a different stage of the story than in the book makes me wonder what else will change along with this. There will obviously not be that part of the scene later on with Lord John Grey, but perhaps that means they may treat Claire and Lord John Grey's’ relationship differently? I liked this change in the fact it showed that Jamie still felt the same about Claire as his soulmate and someone he would trust with what was most precious and personal to him. Though I also wished they would have included more about Brianna and his wanting to know more details about her. Maybe that will come later on. Finally, seeing matured Fergus, Ian Murray Jr., and Mr. Willoughby have added to my excitement for how the rest of the season will be. All of them being so finely cast in their roles. And now I must go and watch for the fourth time.” And now we hear from Judy A.

Judy: Hi, my name is Judy. I absolutely loved this episode and I loved Matt’s script. I thought it was wonderful. The only thing I did not like was the direction, the person who directed this, she’s never directed, it seems, anything that isn’t G-rated, and she does, didn’t know how to do intimate scenes. It was horrible seeing Jamie clutching the blanket rather than Claire. It was horrible. Never seen Claire, she was always covered by the blanket. It was horrible objectifying Jamie, seeing him standing around naked all the time and Claire always covered by a blanket. It really bothered me, she just didn’t know how to, how to show intimacy. If she really wanted to learn how to do it, she should have watched the wedding episode. She was trying to mirror that. And the, the initial kiss on that was the best kiss in the world. Why couldn’t they use that kiss as their initial kiss? Why, why couldn’t she use their rhythm that they used in the wedding? It was very annoying and, however, I did love the episode.

[9:41] Ginger: Krysty R.

Krysty: Good morning, ladies, it’s Krysty R. from New Mexico, the “editor” of our fun “Staying Alive” video that I posted this week. Thanks ladies for being so funny about that and just all the great comments from our podcast group on Facebook. I love our little community, they’re so fun and have a great spirit about them. That thing has taken off, has it not? I checked Twitter this morning and my post on that has over 26,000 impressions. I’m a publicist, that’s my job, and we would say that’s a massive hit in our line of work. And then you add the fact that Diana retweeted that, ahh! It’s so fun, isn't it? Anyway, thanks to you guys and to the group for, just having a little joke on that. I thought that was pretty funny. Um, I’ll keep my thoughts short on this week's episode because I find them to be pretty repetitive based on what I’ve seen others already post about. But I did think the Willie reveal was pretty rushed as a viewer and as a book reader. Um, although I saw an interesting tweet from Sam Heughan who said that he thought his character would be pretty shocked by, not only Claire’s return, but then that new technology of seeing his daughter in a photograph, and that he’d almost be floored, so it was kind of a knee jerk reaction to having to deal with like, the rush of all the things that had come for in his way that he wasn’t quite accustomed to, so I thought that was pretty interesting perspective. Secondly is that ghost reference, you know, back to the first episode, is it a reference back to the first episode? You guys have made, have spoke about this till you’re blue in the face but I haven’t and I’m super curious on what that was all about, like, what did it mean? Does it come full circle in the books? I’m only on book four, so I don’t know. I know you ladies probably do so I would love any insight you have, plus just wondering if the TV series will actually answer that and bring that to viewers full circle as well. So love any insight you guys have on that. You guys have a great week, thanks for all you do. Super fun.

[11:29] Ginger: Kara S.

Kara: Hi. My name is Kara. I thought it was excellent. I enjoyed every minute of it. No complaints on this end and uh, thought Sam and Cait were both excellent. Good job by both. Thank you.

Ginger: Martina P. writes: “I did participate in your super fun FB live after show and I typed in comments. I was a wee bit underwhelmed. All I can say, shame on me. I will never ever pass judgment again after just one viewing. I genuinely hate my inability to stop comparing every single scene to the books. It was particularly prominent in this episode because there was so much hype and the expectations were just unrealistic. I have now watched it multiple times and love it more and more. With the third viewing I was able to put the book aside and massively enjoy the performances. I keep on detecting new gems with each repeated viewing. The Willie bomb had me in a weird rage when I watched it the first time and I remained unfocused throughout. I adore Willie and I still think he doesn’t belong in this episode. But I am over it because there is just so much to love and I am hopeful we will get another sweet moment with Bree’s photographs in another episode. Sam and Caitriona are just flawless and I adore them. My English vocabulary is failing me to find the right words to praise their performances. Sam’s subtle aging is amazing and his acting skills to accommodate this are off the charts. Could anyone look more handsome in a tricorn and spectacles? Their initial awkwardness, the tenderness, the sex, the pillow talks, the cold open, the title cards, the homage to the wedding, Claire’s respectful interaction with Mr. Willoughby, the conversation with the hoors are all favorites of mine and so special that I can whistle past the bad cliffhanger ending, early Willie reveal and Jamie’s clip-on bangs. Thank you so much for all your incredible work and your time investment to let us live out our Outlanderobsession.” Lisa T.

Lisa: Hi lasses, it’s Lisa T. with my wee thoughts on Ep. 306. Um, first of all I’d like to say I loved that we got to see Jamie’s moment before. Um, that really solidified that this isn’t just Claire's story, this is Jamie and Claire’s story so we kind of got a feel for what his everyday life is like. Um, I loved the scene where the, with the photographs, but it wasn’t just about Bree it was about them, pu, kind of putting their family back together and just, they mentioned all of their children and then it leads up to beautiful little arc where it um, leads up to Claire reuniting with Fergus, who’s the only child that they can be with right now, so that was pretty, pretty amazing. I also, you know, I loved, loved the scenes where they, where they uh, got back together. It was just absolutely the most adorable thing when, with the, with the nose bump, that was just precious. Um, Cait was just, Cait was just adorable with that. So, yeah, I’m gonna, I thought it was true to the book but it was also very true to the show and uh, I, I like what they did with Mr. Willoughby and all the, we didn’t have a lot of extraneous, you know, unnecessary story and the hoor’s brunch was hilarious. It reminded me a little bit of waulking, the waulking the wool scene but with I mean, absolutely the funniest, funniest scenes, so I thought that was awesome. (from a second recording:) I forgot to mention um, I loved how we got to see Claire’s fantasy Jamie um, from, I think Ep. 302. We got to see him become, you know, real when he’s sitting at the table and he’s tossing grapes to her so, just wanted to add that. Thank you! From Lisa T. Bye.

[14:54] Ginger: And here we hear from Mary W.

Mary: This is Mary and I just wanted to say that I like the show’s version of how Claire finds out about Willie very much more than I like the book version. I love that, Diana's books but I always thought that that was weird that Lord John Grey would just blurt out to Claire the stuff about Willie and I also thought that it was a little bit weird that he would be just randomly carrying two portraits of Willie on the random chance that he would run into Jamie in Jamaica of all places. So, actually, I think it makes a lot more sense that Claire found out about Willie from Jamie at the very beginning and I like that much better. So, that’s my two cents on that. Thanks. Bye.

[15:46] Ginger: Meagan

Meagan: Hi, my name is Meagan from Memphis, Tennessee. I absolutely loved the episode. I loved how closely the dialogue matched with the book. I just chuckled all throughout from Geordie and his sarcasm and tibby remarks to just how realistic Claire and Jamie’s reunion was from the bumping of the heads and the shyness and from her saying, “Do it now, don’t be gentle,” I mean, it had been a long time for the girl so, you know, she had, you know, no way of knowing that she would ever have seen him again and finally they’re back together and of course she doesn't want him to wait she wants to feel all of him and as quickly as possible. Um, so I loved how realistic that was, it was just so believable. Um, the circumstances they were in, it was just perfect. I didn’t love that she found out about Willie early but, you know, I guess how they portrayed John Grey in the show, he was a, a, a really nice guy. So, I mean, in the spirit of how he told her in the book, I guess they didn’t want him to be that guy. You know, the, the bad guy, kind of, out of spite remark, jealousy, if you will. Um, so I kind of understood why they did that. Um, it’s definitely gonna be interesting the further it goes and all the information that she still doesn't know. Just, overall, just absolutely loved it. I’ve really been impressed from the beginning of how they’ve done this show. So props to the, everybody that works on the show and cares about the story and cares about these characters because the books were amazing and the fact that the show is really, I feel, doing the books justice even though they obviously can’t include everything um, it’s just really, it’s, it’s awesome it’s just a breath of fresh air. I’ve watched so many movies and shows that came from books and they just are so off and leave so much out and I love that the attention to detail is so spot on. So, that is my two cents on the episode. Thank you guys so much, I love you podcast. Bye.

[18:14] Ginger: Virginia H. writes: “Thank you once again for you podcast and for so kindly getting us involved in it. One word I could use to describe ‘A. Malcolm,’: anticipation. It was all about anticipation. Our own in the days, weeks, months previous to this incredible reunion, Claire’s toward Jamie’s feelings and impressions about her maturity, Jamie’s own when confronted with the situation that is wonderful and yet chaotic for his present life. I’ve also come to realize that commenting on your podcast comments area are as much fun as commenting the episodes themselves. Lots of questions were presented to us listeners and book readers and I very much like this interaction. First, Geordie, a real scene stealer indeed. Made me laugh, a lot. Reminded me of pathetic young Simon Lovat reciting poetry, but in a grumpy way. His interruption in a very emotional moment between Claire and Jamie was hilarious. Right from the book. Loved all of it. Cesar. Very dashing, beautiful eyes, just like Young Fergus’s. Also expected the hook but, never mind. The photos. The dude in the bikini photo at first glance looked so much like a young Frank that I kept waiting for a comment in the dialogue. Jamie spilling the beans about William so soon. Did not see that coming and thought it a bit hasty. I pretty much preferred for it to be revealed just like in the books. We’ll miss more Lord John Grey time on screen. Jamie’s secret, yet to be revealed. For book readers there are loads of balls in the air and the exchange of looks, the little question marks make me remember the time I was reading the book and felt a cliffhanger coming. Especially with the title Mr. Willoughby kept giving Claire. And that Jamie surreptitiously mistranslated. Can’t wait for things to unfold and how production will be dealing and making the usual arrangements. The room in the brothel. Was it my imaginon or did the room look a lot like the room in the wedding? I mean, props and decoration were different, but he wooden beams, the windows, just the entrance door was the opposite side. Couldn’t help noticing. I am an architect. There was definitely some vibe there. Maybe to remind us of their wedding night and compare then and now? How so much has changed but a lot hasn’t and they do talk a lot about that night. When Claire looked at Jamie in the eyes and said, ‘Go now and don’t be gentle,’ Wow. Felt it in my bones. The sex scenes were not as graphic as the ones from the beginning but were intense and mature, just like our favorite characters. Once again, thank you for being there and for being the best podcast in the whole world.’ (Ginger chuckles) That is way kind, Virginia. Thank you so much.

[20:44-22:51] advertiser’s content: barkbox.com/outlander for one month free on 6 or 12 month subscription

Ginger: And we wrap up listener feedback with Michael M., Sandi C., and Sara V.

Michael: Howdy Ginger, howdy Summer, this is Michael from Shawnee, Kansas with my feedback for episode 306. Being a book reader I picked up on things during the episode that I thought are cool or, oh that’s a difference, and there’s one particular thing that I picked up on that, after reading a few different reviews, every other book reader’s review picked up on the same thing and none of the show watchers picked up on it. And this thing I’m talking about is during the exchange between Jamie and Fergus when Jamie mentions a character from season one. This character was played by actor Bill Patterson and it is Ned Gowan. All the book readers picked up on Ned Gowan and why he’s relevant and the show watchers, I don’t know how many show watchers remember who he is. Because of this, I know that one of my favorite dialogue changes that happens a little bit later in the story is not gonna happen. And essentially it’s an exchange between Young Ian and his mom Jenny where Young Ian says, “Mom, this person’s here,” and Jenny says, “Did this person bring a gun?” And Young Ian’s response was, “No, it’s worse. This person brought a lawyer.” I thought it was hilarious the first time I read it. Anyway, that’s pretty much all my comments for this episode. I’m sure everyone else is gonna cover most of the other topics. I’m just gonna leave you with an extended parting thought. And that is, Print Shop to the tune of “Thrift Shop.” (music playing)

I'm gonna pop through stones

On my last PBJ in my pocket

I - I - I'm hunting, looking for my hubby

This is something awesome

I work at Carfax Close

I write subversive prose

I'm pining for my bride

In that print shop down the road

I work at Carfax Close

I write subversive prose

I'm pining for my wife

In that print shop down the road

I'm gonna pop through stones

On my last PBJ in my pocket

I - I - I'm hunting, looking for my hubby

This is something awesome

[25:22] Ginger: I have to break into this feedback and respond to Michael’s. Michael, that was amazing. The work you put into that was awesome and that was hysterical (laughs). You have got some cajones.

Sandi: Hi Ginger and Summer, this is Sandi from Oregon. What a great episode! I smiled from ear to ear start to finish. Then it was really the little things that made me smile. It was him asking her to kiss her then uh, he kissed her nose after they bonked heads. Just the little tiny things that he did and the little tiny things that they said to each other or the looks that they gave each other when they were looking at each other while they were undressing. It was just that constant eye contact. It was very passionate and it was very very intense. And the Willie reveal, which I know a lot of book readers didn’t like, I felt it was very organic. They were talking about Bree and he felt like he needed to share the information about his son. So I felt like that really fit well, actually, right there. And I don't know that it’ll be a big problem, I think that, I like to trust that the writers know what they’re doing. Also looking forward to see what happens with Claire because we all know that whenever Claire gets left alone to her own accord she gets into trouble somehow, even if it’s not her fault. So, clearly we have some issues to deal with there. But of course, I’m sure Jamie will come and help her and they will work it out together. Looking forward to what’s to come and the rest of the season. I think it’s gonna be fabulous. Thanks ladies. Talk to you later. Bye.

Sara: Hello guys, this is Sara from Chile, South America again. It’s a quick message today, I just wanted to say that I loved the episode. It, it was wonderful to see Jamie and Claire together. They looked so beautiful together, so perfect, uh, so overall I loved it. Um, the only part that I had some issues with was when uh, Jamie uh, told uh, Claire about Willie. Um, it’s not because it was done now but because it probably means that Lord John will have less screen time later in this uh, season. I always watch um, Outlanderwith my best friend and we felt that the episode was so short that when it ended it was like, “What? It was supposed to be longer.” Oh my god yes, it’s one hour and fifteen minutes and we didn’t feel it at all, so, thank you for making this podcast. I love you guys. Bye!

[27:51] Summer: And now, on to our episode discussion for Episode 307 entitled, “Creme de Menthe.”

Ginger: Well that’s better than Jamie pronounced it. I can’t believe, I don’t even blame Sam. I can’t believe that no one in the entire cast. Like, Caitriona freaking speaks French. I can’t believe no one looking on, they didn’t have, or, Fer, dude, Fergus! Cesar is French!

Summer: Maybe it’s a regional French thing. Maybe there are places in France where they say it differently, I don’t know.

Ginger: No, Summer, there is no ththere is no th sound in the language of French. It’s t(hard “t” sound).

Summer: Okay.

[28:28] Ginger: Menthe, not menthe. Or monthe, whatever. I’m sorry. A little pingelich von mir. Okay, that’s German. A little anal of me, but ugh, I can’t believe that they let him. That no one corrected him.

Summer: Okay. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not important.

Ginger: But it’s the title! It annoyed me because, number one they made it the title. Number two, they mentioned it several times and so did he and other characters pronounced it correctly. That’s what I don’t get.

Summer: Hmm.

Ginger: That’s what I don’t get. Okay. I will let that go. (singing) “Let it go, let it go!” (sighs) This episode is written by Karen Campbell and directed by Norma Bailey.

Summer: That’s a new one

Ginger: They are. Norma Bailey directed the last one but Karen Campbell, I think this is um, new, new to us, she’s new to us. So last episode we left Claire being strangled and threatened with rape by a stranger in Jamie’s room at the brothel.

Summer: As one is in the eighteenth century.

Ginger: As, yeah. Every other episode. This episode opens with the two of them struggling, still. So she must be tired. They struggled for a week. She pulls a knife and after a tuffle, is that a word?

Summer: Tussle

Ginger: Or a scuffle? Huh?

Summer: Tussle or scuffle. Pick one of the two

Ginger: Tuffle? I am so, man, I really made that up (laughs) I guess I made that, a tuffle. I made that up. It’s when you combine a tussle, what was it? A tussle or a scuffle?

Summer: Mm hmm

Ginger: A tuffle? Wow. okay, I make words up all the time. We already knew this. The dude falls and hits his head on the hearth. Now did I miss anything? She never stabbed him, right?

Summer: No. But she’s, she tried to. Well she tried to slash him. She wasn’t actually stabbing, it was more of a slash movement.

[30:13] Ginger: Just then, after the dude falls, Jamie comes in. She tells him that the dude, who’s ly, now lying on the floor was in the room when she came in and he was looking for Jamie’s ledgers. And when she came in he attacked her. The man breathes/wheezes and Claire is like, “He’s alive! He’s still alive!” And she is in full doctor mode. Now that her life is no longer in danger she must answer her calling as a doctor and at least attempt to save this man. Jamie says, “Sassenach, he attacked you.” Like, he does not get why she’d want to save his life. And she says she can’t leave him suffering. Why? “Because I’m a doctor.” Like, “You really don’t know me.” At the beginning of this episode right here and the end of the entire episode, man it’s like the, the episode opens with the theme and closes with the same thing. They are talking the same language, but they do not understand each other.

Summer: Could you imagine, though, being literally anybody else in this scene as she describes what she’s planning on doing, which, is undoubtedly more torturous than just putting a pillow over his face?

Ginger: Oh. Uh, well, I mean, maybe. Yeah

Summer: No, for real. Because if she, she drilled a hole into his head in a time when there’s almost no way to keep that clean. So if he doesn’t die, if he doesn’t die from having a hole drilled in his head, he’s going to get an infection cause she’s not going to nurse him. They don’t have time to sit around and watch him get better from being drilled in the head.

Ginger: We’re gonna, we’re gonna talk about that because I have some, I have some thoughts. Well we’ll, we’ll talk about that. And of course, she very quickly diagnoses him with an epidural hematoma

Summer: Is that that easy to, to..?

Ginger: That’s what I wanna ask. Dear listeners, if we have any physicians or scientists, researchers, people who know about the, the brain, yes, but know about these types of things and diag, diagnosticians especially, is it really that easy or quick to diagnose, if you know what you’re looking for and without any twentieth century diagnostic tools or tests? And there’s a knock on the door and it’s Madame Jeanne and Fergus. And they say, “We heard that there were struggles up here and so we uh, came up.” Okay. no one gave an accusatory, I don’t, I didn’t notice anyone giving any accusatory stares or anything, you know, once they came up uh, toward Claire. But Jamie steps in and I got the feeling that he had, he felt he had to defend her. Or maybe it was just him explaining. So they heard the struggles upstairs and they came just after Jamie had entered and Jamie said that, before anyone asks what happened, he says, “She was defending herself.” So I’m like, was there any question that, did he think that they thought Claire would go around just like, trying to hurt people? Like, you know what I mean? She was defending herself, so obviously he had to make it clear?

Summer: She was. The larger issue, I think, is, I know the difference between Claire in the earlier 1700s and now is that she’s gone to medical school and actually taken a Hippocratic Oath, however, she has, as Jamie points out almost immediately, “This is not what your, the time that you’re from. And if they show up here and see you like this, like, if we call the, the authorities, they’re not gonna believe you. They’re gonna see you, half dressed, upstairs entertaining a man in your room, who you’ve killed.” So I, she, she’s just not practical right now.

Ginger: Well, Claire’s never been practical, but I agree

Summer: I know. But they’re, but in the earlier 1700s when she was there the first time, I don't think she would’ve fought so hard to save a dude who tried to kill her’s life

Ginger: And, besides the Hippocratic Oath she took, I think she might not have fought so hard because she didn’t have as much knowledge or ability as well. So, I can see it both ways.

GSummer: Well, hopefully she’s gonna use this as a, as a good excuse to not drill into people’s heads in the future.

Ginger: Ha. We shall see. Claire asks for help to get the man on the bed and Fergus responds immediately by going over to her and to him. Jamie again gives a warning. He says, “Sassenach, let God take him.” Claire again affirms her duty, her vocation. “I have to try and save him, Jamie. You understand?” Well obviously he doesn’t. And when he still doesn’t respond she begs. She says, “Please!” And then he gives in. So you have a little bit of a struggle of wills there. She gets moving and begins to assemble and request the things that she’ll need. Fergus and Jamie move the stranger to the bed. Jamie checks the man’s ID or paperwork. I don't know that they had ID per se, at that point, and the man’s name is John Barton. At that, Fergus looks at Jamie a little knowingly and yep, Jamie’s next line is, “He’s an exciseman.” Fergus states the obvious. “This is very bad, milord.” (laughs) Sorry. It just made me laugh. We hear about Sir Percival again and there’s some agreement that they have and how he is not sticking to it. Claire asks about that agreement. Fergus confirms Sir Percival’s suspicions. They have indeed been trading as far as Dundee and Arbroath and he, Sir Percival is a crooked agent of the crown. Now if the man who is down, the one who fell, does not return, Sir Percival will come looking for him. Madame Jeanne also states the obvious, “That’s a problem.”

[35:49] Summer: Heh, right?

Ginger: (laughing) Because, and then she explains herself, the casks are stored under her brothel, so yeah, that's a problem. Jamie says, “Nope, not for long.” So, is he gonna get rid of it? Well, Madame Jeanne is going to get one of her discreet girls, now I hope that all the girls at a brothel would be discreet, looking at how their clientele might be, you know, cheating on their wives or whatever. Um, but she’s going to get one of her most discreet girls to take care of things. Claire also wants this discreet girl to bring her some hot water in a basin and some surgical implements. And she mentions a trephine. You know, at your neighborhood Sweeney Todd.

Summer: Right? First of all, everyone knew what it was

Ginger: Exactly. And no one flinched! I mean, they made that like, “What are you gonna do with it?” but they knew exactly what she meant.

Summer: And, and, well they, maybe they didn’t. (Ginger laughs) I mean, there’s gotta be other uses for a giant drill.

Ginger: Yeah, that’s true

Summer: They must, they must have thought she wanted to torture him. Like, as much as, as he was claiming his wife is a he, is a healer and she was trying to help him, when she described what she was going to do, everyone must have thought she was taking it out on him, at least a little bit.

Ginger: And they knew (chuckles) and Jamie, who wanted the dude just to let, let him die…

Summer: Seriously

Ginger: ...he knew, he was the only one who legit knew she was gonna try and help even though he didn’t understand, but the others, yeah, they were like, “Uh, okay, she, he did almost, he did almost try to rape or kill her so, you know, okay… And he’s dangerous so, uh, let’s let her do it, whatever.” So Claire is going all surgical on us and Madame Jeanne is all, “Uh, we’ll see what I can do,” as far as getting that trephine. Jamie takes Fergus aside and says to gather the lads, he'll bring them in and let them, they’ll be, all be in on the down low

Summer: and I, the names, this week, Lindsey and Hayes, correct?

Ginger: Yes

Summer: Okay. so now we know

Ginger: And that, we learn that Gavin Hayes, later on, that’s not a spoiler. I don’t remember, Lindsey’s first name, but I remember Hayes is Gavin Hayes. Claire has to go shopping to get laudanum, etc. She says, she asks Jamie to please stay with the man. Again Jamie expresses how much he is not a fan of her plan. “He doesn’t deserve your mercy.” And she doesn’t even disagree. She just wants to do her best and then once he’s recovered Jamie can turn him in to the authorities.

Summer: Mm hmm.

[38:06] Ginger: Jamie gets a little, “This is not your time, Claire.” He says that the laws, what Summer was saying earlier, the las could come down on her if they discovered how things were. Not the truth, just how things were, how they appeared. “You were in a brothel with a man who wasn’t your husband.” Wow. I was a little bit shocked by this. He’s not wrong regarding the time period. I do see and agree with his concern but every time, every, everything she says or every, whether it’s the telling him, “I, I can’t let him suffer, I have to do something,” and then her begging, her saying, “Please!” It’s like, all of this stuff and here’s more, I, it, I just feel, this is such a battle of wills right here and he’s like, “Ugh.” And um, Claire’s response to this?

Summer: I think, I think they’ve both romanticized each other a lot

Ginger: Uh huh, a hundred percent

Summer: Over the past twenty years and, and I think that them coming back together, they are like, being reminded, “Oh my god, this is the thing, the one thing that I could have changed about you and it's annoying and you still do this!”

Ginger: (laughing) Yes. “You need to stay put,” and, “You need to understand that I do what I do.” Absolutely

Summer: Right

Ginger: Okay, so Claire’s response to all this? “I’ll have to hurry.” She’s like, “I’ll go, I’m gonna go but I will, but I will be as quick as I can.” Resigned he says, “Do as ye must.” But Jamie won’t stay with the man. He has to go help get rid of those pesky casks. He says he’ll send a man to watch over him. Hope we trust this person. Now Claire gets dressed really quickly. Thank you zipper. (laughs) And the person who stays with Claire

Summer: What a difference a zipper makes, man

Ginger: Oh my lord, she doesn’t need a maid, no kidding

Summer: It was like, zip! She’s ready to go!

Ginger: Mr. Willoughby is the one Jamie has to go stay with the man. Now Jamie’s dudes are rolling the casks and getting ready to pass them along. Young Ian says, uh, “Print shop? Oh yeah, uh, that place.” There are no casks there, but it’ll be fine. Jamie’s like, “We’re good.” And he’s like, “Uh, what about your seditious material, um, uh, Uncle Jamie?” Jamie’s convinced they won’t be found because they’re hidden. Mm hmm.

Summer: Right. Mm hmm

Ginger: We’ll see how that went. They are to sell all of the casks, even at a loss, they have to get rid of them. Okay, so, are we ready? We can’t spoil, but we can express ourselves without spoiling. So, they get at the apothecary. That’s the adaptation. Now, in the book, does Claire go to the, go to the apothecary and run into a gentleman? Absolutely. The same person? Absolutely. But is it really the same person? Absolutely not! (laughs) So, I think she just wants to fill up her herbal basket or something her, you know, her medical basket in the, in the book. But here she’s specifically going to get certain things for that dude. As she goes in, there’s a man at the counter already talking to the apothecary and she’s like, “Um, yeah, can I uh, oh, can I like, can I be helped please? I actually really have to help somebody.” I thought that was, I understood it, I understood her urgency because of the state of the man, but I thought like, that, it was a little bit rude. (laughs) I don’t know.

Summer: Yeah

Ginger: Cause, it’s Claire

Summer: Well I mean, she doesn’t, she doesn't know what he’s there for, she doesn’t know his emergency. And again she’s just...

Ginger: She’s Claire

Summer: ...rushing to get back and kill that dude so, I mean, I don't

Ginger: Well hold on about that because I had something to say about that too. Okay, so Claire, Claire, there’s a, there's a dude there, she’s like, “Excuse me, I’m more important, can you help me? This guy’s, I need, ehhh.” And the man’s like, “Um, yeah, I’m helping this dude, wait your turn, lady. Lady.” And um, she's like, and the guy mentions um, he says, “Oh, well the health of my sister is also urgent,” and Claire’s like, “Look,” she pulls the healer card. “Let me go in front of you and get my shiz.”

Summer: Though, to be honest, to whatever's wrong with his sister does not trump, “I need to drill the dude's head open.”

Ginger: Oh no, of course, oh no, Summer, I never said it did. I’m just saying, to walk in and demand

Summer: No, agreed.

Ginger: You have to at least say, “Look, I’m a, there’s a guy with a head wound, can I please go in front of you?” She didn’t do that. She’s just like, “I’m more urgent, I need to go first.” Like, whoa, girl. Don’t lead that way,  you lead with the, with the issue. So she pulls the healer card and she goes, “Look, you let me go in front of you go get my doodads, and I will come see your sister,” and he’s like, “Free of charge?” Ever the Scot, right? Ever the Scot. Ever the, stereotypical Scot, I should say. And she’s like, “Yes, of course.” So he’s like, (Ginger singing) “By my guest, be my guest, da da da da da da da da.” And so she gets her stuff. Laudanum, ground yarrow root and tormentil. Campbell’s sister’s condition is also related to the head, he says. But more of a nervous condition. She promises to call on them at Henderson’s in Caruther’s Close. Book readers will remember the names introduced here: Margaret and Archibald Campbell. The one thing I will say that’s not a spoiler is that in the book he was a reverend. And these certainly are not reverend people. We’ll get to there in a little bit. (laughs) So the boys are out selling the alcohol. Young Ian is quite the seller. He got one dude to pay the price he asked and he said he’d thrown in three casks of creme, creme de menthe. Remember the dude who ends up in the cask at this moment is still alive. But I had a question about that too, later on. So Young Ian asks Fergus if he remembered Auntie Claire. This is after they sell the stuff and get away from the man. So obviously they have, or the man leaves, whatever. They have privacy. Fergus says, “Yes! Though I was a boy.” Uh, Young Ian asks, “What was she like?” Fergus answers, “Spirited. Incredibly brave. Fearless.” Now, okay, let’s be honest. Claire’s good, but not that good. Fergus deifies his milady. He said that she healed people who were cut in half. I mean, look. But he says she’s also dangerous. Don’t cross her. And there were rumors about her. Back at the bunny ranch, duh Jamie, the exciseman is having a lucid interval. These things happen with head wounds. Like, Claire’s like, “It happens with head wounds.” Like, Claire, you can’t expect, you can be upset that they're like, mistreating him, even though they they’re really not, they don’t mean to, but don’t like, throw down your doctor knowledge like that because, they don’t know what the hell is going on.

Summer: Gracious.

Ginger: So how does Claire keep him quiet? She’s like, “I can do that.” And she douses him with laudanaum. And now it’s time to operate. Now, Clarie calls Mr. Willoughby Yi Tien Cho right away. Notice how she doesn’t, not that we heard Willoughby a lot this episode, but notice how she doesn’t default to Willoughby like everyone else. And Mr. Willoughby responds, “Of course, Honorable Wife.” So someone’s had a talking to. (laughs)

Summer: I’m, I’m curious, I feel like I’m sad that we didn't get introduced to Mr. Willoughby’s healthy balls because I feel like they could have come in very handy to bludgeon the dude to death while she was gone. And, I mean, if he hit him in the exact same spot where it was already bruised, and he just wasn’t alive when she got back, no one would have been the wiser. Just saying.

[45:20] Ginger: That’s true, that’s true. But, I have something to say, not about the point when she was gone, but, I, I have something to say, cause I noticed a few things on my second or third watch, so. Right at that time, Sir Percival is there to see Jamie. Darn. So Jamie’s gone. Claire begins to roll out her surgical instruments. And now it’s just herself and Mr. Willoughby. Which, if you know the book, is an interesting combo but, not gonna say anything more. Downstairs the nekkid bunnies are traipsing around. Mr. Percival is there he says, on business, of course to search the premises for alcohol. We go back and forth from Sir Percival and Jamie looking for the, and him looking for the alcohol back up to Claire and her surgery. Claire cuts into the skin of the head of the exciseman to make room to use the drill. And when she does this Mr. Willoughby’s eyes widen. Now thus far, this is gonna sound really weird, why, when I wrote this, but it’ll make sense, I promise. Thus far, we only, the only thing we know about Mr. Willoughby is that he’s from China. (laughs) We know nothing. And his name. We know nothing about his background. I mean Jamie said he saved his life, he said, but we don’t know what his background is, did, didn't they say that he was a scholar?

Summer: I don’t remember that much

Ginger: I thought that, I thought I read that. I could be wrong, but I thought I read that. So Sir Percival's like, “Of course I have every right to go do this, I’m gonna go look for myself.” Back to Claire. Claire’s now opening, she's, she’s cut into the skin she’s now opening the skin on the man’s head to make room for the, to be able to put the drill next to the bone and it doesn’t seem to freak Mr. Willoughby out but Mr. Willoughby doesn’t seem to be overly comfortable around surgery stuff. He doesn’t like, he doesn't look like he’s gonna barf, he doesn’t look like he’s scared, he’s like, but his eyes kind of widen and he kind of looks, looks to the side like, or looks at her like, “Uh, you really doing this?”

Summer: I mean, Ginger, you may be the only person who watches surgeries. No, you’re not the only person. Maybe you’re one of the few who, who goes and watches those surgeries on purpose. I would never willingly, I would never willingly watch that

Ginger: (laughs) I do watch surgeries. That’s a whole other topic. But the reason I watch these certain surgeries is because it’s what this one doctor does, like her specialty and I only, she’s the only doctor I follow on, her handle is @beautybydrcat, but it’s Doctor Cat Begovic, or Begovic, and um, she’s double board certified in plastic surgery, reconstructive surgery, as well as like, ear/nose/throat stuff. So, she’s like, she’s, Harvard Medicine, UCLA.

Summer: Look, Ginger, unless she’s popping giant cysts, I am not interested

Ginger: Ew, you like watching those?!

Summer: I will watch that all. day. long. It’s disgusting

Ginger: That is disgusting!

Summer: (laughing) It’s so gross, but I can’t look away

Ginger: Summer, that’s so bad! I’m so disappointed! I can live with the fact that you don’t like to watch surgeries, cause that’s completely normal. You like to watch the nasty stuff? Oh, grossness.

Summer: I, I, it’s relaxing, I don’t know what to say.

[48:24] Ginger: So most of the stuff, okay, tell me, if this would interest you. Most of the stuff I watch from this doctor because most of what she does, is, uh, wel, more plastic surgery. She does breast implants, of all kinds, like, lifts, implant, all kinds of, it’s very interesting to see how she does, it, it’s actually fascinating. And, and then she does like, tummy lifts, you call, tummy tucks. And she does other stuff that’s like, girly bits, but she does, oh my gosh, the one surgery, well not the one, but one of the ones that I can’t watch, I found out, I can’t watch anything with eyeballs and I can’t watch anything like the knees when you open up the, ah, bleh, I can’t watch that. Um, but I can watch, I can’t wach eyeballs, I’m like, I refuse to watch anything in the mouth. That’s gross. I can’t. But I can watch almost anything else. And the thing that I discovered I couldn't watch was a nose job.

Summer: Well that, ow, yeah, no, that, I, that hurts looking at it.

Ginger: It’s not even about using like, the hammer and everything. It’s about, have you seen it?

Summer: They peel your face off

Ginger: Not your face off, your nose peels back

Summer: You know where your nose is? It’s on your face. Right in the middle of it

Ginger: It’s on your face. But they don't peel your face back, Summer. Oh my goodness. So yeah, I couldn’t watch it. I was like, “Oh, I can watch this,” or whatever, I’d never seen one. And I like, she got the chisel out, she started doing the, I’m like, “Okay, that's kinda like, you know, arr.” But um, when, and then the next snap, when the nose, when there was like, no more nose, I was like, “Uhhh!” I couldn't do it. I, I was like, “Holy mother of god, turn it off now!” I can’t, and then, I don’t freak out that easily but that freaked me the eff, I couldn’t do it. So surgeons who do that and people, not, if you get one, this is no judgement at all. I just couldn't watch it. I, I, I couldn’t. I couldn’t.

Summer: Ginger, most people couldn't. You watch more things than most people can.

Ginger: Yeah but, not like, not like injury stuff. I like, I don’t mind watching surgeries because like, I don’t think I, I don’t know if I could watch trauma. That’s a bit much, but I could watch like, planned surgeries, that, they, they’re cool to watch. So, Willoughby doesn’t seem freaked out. But he seems like, I, he doesn’t seem freaked out or scared, but he doesn’t seem overly comfortable. I, I don’t know where I sit on that spectrum right now with him. But maybe he has a little bit of an interest in it? Because again he’s not like, he doesn’t have a fear of things, doesn’t seem to. He’s doing a good job of helping hold the man still, and, but he doesn’t look too cool again, when we hear all that drilling going on. He’s like, “Uh…” he looks away and appears uncomfortable. It was pretty gnarly. And then I love how, I know they show it, but you don’t necess, I just thought it was blood like, okay, she opened him up and out comes the blood. Well what, that makes sense because you opened up something where blood is. And then she’s like, very nonchalant, “And there goes the clot.” I was like, “Uggggh.” So we just watched a clot run out? (laughs) That’s kinda gross.

Summer: Right. But, when you think about it, that’s fantastic, but what’s now stopping the massive bleeding from continuing?

Ginger: Oh, from her hole?

Summer: She does, yeah! From the hole she just drilled in the guy’s head. I mean, it’s like, she didn’t think about the fact that modern medicine makes those kind of surgeries possible because they have all the other things. They have anesthesiologists. They have, you know, machines that can, well, especially nowadays they have machines that slow and or, you know, can st, you know that can stop your heart mid surgery. They have teeny tiny tiny drills and things for brains. Not giant like

Ginger: You almost went like, Cartman on us there.

Summer: You’re welcome.

[51:45] Ginger: (Cartman voice) “Teeny tiny tiny…”

Summer: That’s my point

Ginger: Exactly. We now switch back to the basement. Sir Percival and his underlings search the basement. Finding nothing, they leave. This is where we gotta look super close. Super close. So if you guys, the stuff that I'm about to talk, about to say, the observations that I made, again, I can always be wrong. But I watched this and I was like, “This is too, there’s too much going on here, or not being said here,” for, for me to be 100% off. I may be wrong on some of them but I don't think I can be wrong on all of them. So Jamie returns to the room. So, what do we see, before Jamie gets back, what do we see with them? We see Claire drilling into the head, Mr. Willoughby holding the guy still in case he wants to move, or moves and the clot passes and she’s like, “Great! That was the clot that pla, that passed.” That’s all and then we go away and we go to the basement and then we come back with Jamie. By the time we’re back there with Jamie the dude has died.

Summer: Drilled into his head. With a hand drill

Ginger: But, there are some things that happen that are a little fishy. So she says the dude has died. And she says it kind of flatly, not really accusatorily toward Jamie, more toward herself but she’s just upset that he’s dead, right? And we understand that because she wanted to save a life. He said, she says, “He’s dead. You’ve got your wish.” She looks a little pal-sy with Mr. Willoughby. Almost like they share a secret or maybe a feeling. Mr. Willoughby is continually respectful of Claire. He says, “Honorable Wife fought hard for his life. Put best foot forward.” No one asked him. I mean, it’s very nice of him, but he didn’t have to like, defend her. Jamie knew that she would do her best, there’s never a question about that. Mr. Wil, the fact that Mr. Willoughby spoke up and if you look at him while he says it, he’s, cause he’s talking to Jamie, but he looks at her and she’s kinda looking away. I mean, they’re not even meeting eyes. There’s something fishy going on there, that’s all I'm gonna say.

Summer: I just think she feels bad cause the dude’s dead.

Ginger: Maybe. Maybe. So I’m thinking maybe Mr. Willoughby was actually impressed what Claire was doing. So not un, not unsure or uncomfortable and even at the end of his line they’re making eyes at each other. Not googy eyes, but

Summer: I was like, “What?”

Ginger: No, no, not romantical. Just like, this is the feeling I get, I’ll just say it. The feeling I got about the way their eye contact was was um, “Let’s, uh, yeah yeah yeah, that’s right, uh huh, yeah, right, you’re exactly right, I don’t, I did everything I could.” Like they had an agreement to not say everything. That’s what I got. Cause all the looks that were going on! And you know the fact that we got eyeballs from both directions makes me think we’re gonna hear more about this incident. I’ll bet, this is what I’m thinking. I’ll bet that the dude survived. I think they ended up killing him.

Summer: Why?

[54:37] Ginger: I don’t, I don't know. They either, there’s too much goofiness going on there. It’s just too shady. And I get it, maybe I'm looking too deep but maybe, I don't know that the guy was in any kind of state to like, regain consciousness and actually talk, I’m not going that far. But maybe she smothered him or something? The looks between these two are too conspiratorial to be, “Oh, I drilled his brain. The clot left, and he died.” Cause when we left them with him, she was hopeful. My point is, and he, he could’ve died, he could totally could’ve died from the, from shock and everything, cause you’re right, he drilled, she drilled into his head. But because of the weirdness I think, I don’t think we’ve heard the last of this. Now I’m wondering if the man, again, I, honestly I really don’t know that he came back and could even incoherently speak, I don’t know. But I’m wondering if he let out some kind of secret that scared Claire or if Mr. Willoughby, because Mr. Willoughby’s been with him a lot longer than Claire has in this time. Mr. Willoughby knows a lot about his dealings. Maybe, maybe Mr. Willoughby knows of this man? Cause Jamie, all Jamie was doing, the only reason he didn’t, you know, either kill him off, or, you know, pull her away from repairing, heh, repairing. You know, helping heal this man, Jamie was, he did not want this man to survive, he’s like, “Look, he attacked you. Let God deal with it. He attacked you. You owe him nothing,” You know what I’m saying? He was really not wanting her to do this. Plus get herself in trouble with leaving and getting caught or whatever. But maybe, if it wasn’t the man, maybe Mr. Willoughby shared some information that convinced Claire that, “Oh my gosh, we have to take care of this dude.” I don’t know, I’m just putting it out there, because

Summer: I can’t, I honestly can’t think of anything Willoughby could’ve said to Claire that would have done anything that what Jamie was saying to her didn't stop.

Ginger: I don’t know, I don't know. All I’m saying is the only thing that makes sense to me, not that he came back, he wasn’t dead, before he died. Not that he suddenly regained consciousness, not that he spoke. The only thing, the thing that makes the most sense to me, if indeed there is some kind of tiny, tiny, tiny little, not huge political conspiracy but just suddenly between the two of them. Here’s the bottom line, I don't think they’re telling everything. I think we’re gonna hear more about it, I think there's something. I don't know what it is, but the reason I think that is because the looks they keep giving each other. Why, it was just too, and she, she was like, you know, cleaning her instruments and she’s like, at first wouldn’t make eye contact. And then Mr. Willoughby’s  like, “Oh she tried her hardest,” well of course she did! Anyway it’s just, it’s just too weird to me. Jamie says, “It’s better this way. God took him.” And Claire, here's another, here’s another thing! Claire said, “God has nothing to do with this.” I'm wondering if she’s speaking out of disappointment or like I said before, God truly didn’t have anything to do with it. Her attitude isn’t, at first, later on, a little more. A little more convincing. Her attitude right now isn’t, doesn’t make me feel like she's sad she lost her, a patient. She's upset, but I don’t get that she’s sad. Later on I do. Then I started to doubt because she gets a little sadder. She says, “I failed him. If I’d been in a proper hospital in Boston.” Now part of me wonders if this is honest because, surely, if the dude was in Boston where the, you know, modern, her modern time, he, there, there’s obviously more she could’ve done. I mean of course, cause this is the truth, it’s not a lie, this is the truth. But I'm wondering if this is honest or if she's shining him on just to be consistent with what she was saying before. “I need to help him, I’m a doctor.” And then, “I failed him, I wish I could’ve done more.” All of those things are completely consistent with Claire and completely consistent with someone who’s trying to save a life and then lost it. Okay, now we’re getting somewhere. She says, “I don’t expect you to understand.” Again we are shown just how much they have to learn about each other and how much has happened during their time apart. She’s dedicated, she tells him, fourteen years to healing people, respecting human life without judgment. Here we go again! This makes me think that there really was something that happened with Mr. Willoughby there, that he helped her with. Think about it. She’s pissed in front of Jamie, what she’s doing right now with Jamie, it’s for show-ish. But it’s also consistent with the, “I’m a doctor and I respect human life. I lost a patient and I almost didn’t get a chance to treat him because you don't understand.” Whereas for her, these feelings and expressions are completely authentic and true. But she’s expressing herself so strongly because, I’m positing that she’s expressing herself so strongly because she went against those fourteen years. I’m betting she had a hand in killing him and not just because she drilled his brain. (laughs) Anyway, that’s just my feeling.

[59:20] Summer: You know, for your sake, that’d be really awesome. Um, but, I feel like you’re wayover thinking that. Because, in the book (chuckling) there was no exciseman that she did brain surgery on. So, I think if nothing else it gave her the, the wakeup call and the moment of realness that, you know, this is not where she’s, this is not the place she's been practicing medicine for the past twenty years. This is not normal, this is not her, this, this is her new normal. And she needs to be a little, maybe a little bit more realistic. Maybe not, I’m not saying not keep trying but, just to know her own limitations given the things she has at hand. And maybe drilling into a dude’s head in a brothel is not the most clean or antiseptic place to do that.

Ginger: I agree with that. I agree with that. Something else which ma, once, once we learn more about Willoughby in the show this may be completely um, beside the point. But, so what I will say before we leave this little Willoughby/Claire moment(pronounced in French) is that something else, I have to really talk (chuckles) around things here so for people who are show watchers only, please bear with me. You will understand this in about (chuckles) five episodes? By the end of the season. You don’t have to come back and listen to this again. But I have to say this so that Summer can answer me and that book readers will know that I am not, I don’t believe, I’m gonna explain myself a little bit, why I don’t think I’m off my head, besides the reasons I’ve already given. And, and the, not proof, but evidence I see, or whatever, from the show. There’s something about Willoughby in the books that we do not know yet in the show. And because of his existence in the books, I believe that reason was kept for the show and we’ll learn about it. So, I’m not gonna spoil what that is. I’m not saying they bonded but I think she found something out. I don't think that’s related to his death, I’m just saying I think there was something there. And besides, that, it, it would’ve been a great thing to, could be a great thing later on, when we find out more, to flashback to. I’m just putting that out there for the universe, for the, for listeners. It could be complete bunk, we may never hear from this again. I agree with you, Summer that it, it could absolutely be related to the fact that he, that he died and she’s just pissed off and is being, and has been knocked down a peg. Absolutely.

Summer: I mean, I don't know what you expected. Like when he kept, when he comes back and the patient's dead. Like, if, if none of those thing that you think happened happened and all that happened is she tried to save him and couldn’t, that’s enough!

Ginger: Except that, her trying to save him, what we saw was the drilling, right? That’s all we saw. Now, of course that is her trying to save him. But I think at the end she would’ve done some other things, like, “Oh my gosh, his breathing has stopped!” There would have been something, that’s what I’m saying, we were missing that complete thing. Do we need it? No. Is it enough to know that he was in a bad situation and he got his head drilled into? Of course. I’m just saying, with all the stuff and how much and how, how willing she was to fight for this guy to give him a chance, and she did a really really big thing. We missed the scene where she was so pissed off that he died. We saw the after effect. I just think that it was, it was too weird to not have that. That’s all I'm saying.

Summer: It might have been edited out for time.

Ginger: That is true. Then she starts to blame herself for causing him trouble, meaning Jamie. So now they’re off the dead dude, she’s like “I’m so sorry, Jamie.” She’s having a little pitter, pity party and it’s natural. Claire, after all, is human too. The love theme comes up here and Jamie says when she appeared at the print shop, “It was as if the sun returned and cast out the darkness.” And that’s interesting because in the books Jamie is the one who's always seen as the sun. So, that’s cool. Claire, now she’s like, “Okay sorry, gotta go, I have to see, I have to see my nother, another patient.” Jamie is certainly up in her grill in this episode. “Who might that be?” he asks. She says, “Margaret Campbell,” and she admits that she does not know who these people are and Jamie wants her to have an escort and Jamie’s even worried about Sir Percival. And she’s like, “Sir Percival doesn’t even know who I am. It, it’s don’t worry about it. There's nothing to be afraid of, at this moment at least. Cause he’s never seen me with you in that way.” Claire again uses language, okay, this is another thing. It’s like this thing keeps coming up. Claire again uses language that is suspicious. “Sir Percival doesn’t know who I am or what I’ve done to the man who worked for him.”

[1:04:05] Summer: She drilled into his head!

Ginger: I know that. The fact that she drilled, drilled into his head is not the problem. The fact that he’s dead is the problem.

Summer: It is, though. To anyone outside of that room and outside of the, of the know of what went down in that room. If anyone finds that body, he died from a drill to the head.

Ginger: Well that’s what they're gonna think, yes.

Summer: That’s my point.

Ginger: Well, yeah, if, the, that’s why it’s dangerous for the body, even if they did smother him. Even if they, you know, he had his subdural, or epidural hematoma or whatever it was. You’re right, the most obvious thing, or not obvious cause of death, but the most uh, visible thing that looks like it’s the trauma, of course it’s gonna be, it’s very easy to look at that and say, “Oh, he died because someone drilled his head!” (chuckles) I mean that, that would makes sense, especially if you’re from the eighteenth century you don’t know, well, they had the tre, they had the drill back then, but yeah, it, you would look at that and say, “Oh my gosh, someone did this to him and, and killed him.” So Claire leaves and of course she promises to return. Now when Young Ian and Fergus are having their drinks and Young Ian sees Brighid is he, is that a tavern or is that the brothel?

Summer: I think it’s a tavern, she’s a tavern girl.

Ginger: Well, she’s also a hoor.

Summer: I didn’t see any other boobs.

Ginger: Okay, me either. Good, you’re right, so I think it was a tavern. So Young Ian and Fergus are toasting their success in unloading all the casks. Fergus sees Young Ian watching a woman named Brighid. He wants Young Ian to bed the lass that night. Young Ian asks him, so we learn that Young Ian’s never been with a woman and Young Ian says, “Well how old were you when you had your first time?” Of course, Fergus says he was fifteen and it was a ménage à trois

Summer: Of course

Ginger: And he says, “Two women, and one moi.” (Summer groans, Ginger laughs) I thought that was funny. Fergus gives him some tips on, not necessarily what to do during the deed but, you know, how to, how to, how to get a woman to, to, to sit with you, to be with you, to spend time with you. And then he leaves.

Summer: Get him drunk, that’s what he said.

Ginger: Exactly.

Summer: Get ‘em drunk, keep ‘em drunk, they’ll do what you want.

[1:06:12] Ginger: Well, no, tell her how beautiful she is and buy her a drink. And then keep doing it. Brighid comes over and he uses both steps. Pretty quickly. Now this may be nothing, but the music used right here after they start to talk, I don't remember the music before when Fergus was there. But here with Young Ian and Brighid, it’s got a little bit of, like, almost not every single time we see Young Ian, but a lot of things with Young Ian cause he’s like, always like, on the move, you know, he, he’s moving quickly. But at least here with Young Ian and Brighid it almost, almost has a little bit of a Last of the Mohicanssound to it. I’m wondering if it’s for Young Ian or if it’s for Voyagerin general, something upbeat and adventurous because, as we know, which we can’t spoil yet, Voyageris one of the most, probably the most adventurous book before uh, An Echo in the Bone. Bear has also said to watch out for the Voyagermusic to come. So you know we’re excited about that. So the camera shows that in the pub just behind, not behind them like, two inches behind them but like, oh, over their shoulder you can see that it is the, the man with a blind eye, I believe they call him? Who worked for Sir Percival. So you can see a connection of where the next time we see Young Ian and Brighid and that man shows up so you can kind of think, “Oh well he prob, he probably followed them.”

Claire goes to see Margaret Campbell, the sister of Archibald Campbell whom she met in the apothecary. Now Margaret Campbell is a little off in the head just as in the book, but that’s about where the similarity ends. When she says she’s tired, can they come back later, because Claire’s just entered, Archibald answers, “It’s not a client, Margaret, it’s a healer.” She’s really drowsy and docile and Claire notices this. Now Archibald, or Mr. Campbell confirms that he gives her laudanum to keep her calm. And as soon as Claire takes her hand Margaret has this huge intake of breath and now, this part I, did not transcribe, I’m probably wrong. She said, “Gree, greep,” whatever that is. I heard a gand an rand an eand a por an l, I don’t even know. Whatever. But I did get this, “Do you hear them? Do you hear the tree toad's lullaby? And the moon. The moon be choking with blood. You best be careful. Abandawe will devour you. Abandawe, abandawe, abandawe.” Now my, my first watch through I was just like, “That is gobbledygook.” And of course when I sat to take notes, I was like, “Oh my gosh! That’s a completely different pronunciation of a certain place we all know!”

[1:08:50] Summer: Well this is what I like to call a giant setup.

Ginger: How do you feel about it?

Summer: I fe, eh. I feel like

Ginger: Is it a cop out?

Summer: No, I don’t know if it was a cop out

Ginger: Uhhh….

Summer: Maybe, but I think they, it’s, it’s almost like a setup for what’s to come later in the series um, and a way to, maybe they thought it was an easier explanation than the one not given by Diana Gabaldon.

Ginger: All I know is, I don’t disagree that, there’s a lot in Voyager, you’re like, “Wtf. Really, truly, wtf.” However, (sighs) oh my goodness, there’s so much, so much here. So when you’re in the apothecary and you hear about Campbell, he’s not a reverend but you’re like, “Okay, whatever, you know, whatever.” And then you hear it’s his sister and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, they’re keeping it, they’re keeping it,” all this stuff. But, ugh. I mean here, let’s go on, there's more to say. So Claire says, “No more laudanaum,” and Campbell asks if she understands what his sister said and Claire says, “No.” And he says, “I’d be happy to translate her vision. For a modest fee.”

Summer: For a cost. Mm hmm.

Ginger: Now. I want to know, okay. They are fortune tellers. Margaret is a seer. Am I the only one who thought this was kind of a cop out?

Summer: In what regard?

[1:10:14] Ginger: Okay, it’s more magic, right? It’s not, it’s not like, “And in the end we woke up and it was all a dream.” No, it wasn’t, okay, it, it’s not like that. That’s a cop out. But

Summer: Yeah, but it’s a cop out but, it’s also painting this dude out to be an opportunist and somebody who’s like, “Oh, I’m the only one who can interpret them.” How the hell is he going to interpret stuff for a place he’s never been to?

Ginger: Well he, okay, he does not say interpret, he says translate. So that, not that that's better but does he mean like, interpret as in tell you what it means? Or does he mean, cause a lot of what she said, if you and I, Summer, hadn’t had the background of the book, we would’ve been like, “Abandawe, abandon who?” see what I’m saying?

Summer: Right..

Ginger: Like, my thing is I don’t know if he says, “Did you literally understands the words coming out of her mouth,” as in, “She was speaking English, did you understand that?” Not what they had like, as a meaning to her life. Right? There’s two ap, there's two applications. How do the, what is the, literally, what’s the words? Like, could you transcribe them, write them down for me, what the hell is she saying? And then what do they mean? So I don't, I, he probably means what, what they mean. But whatever. So we’re talking Voyagerso she sees but can’t articulate what she sees so he deciphers her messages. Does he have a talent too? Or does he literally just make the words she says comprehensible. I don’t know and we’ll find out more maybe later. Who knows? But ugh, I have to get over it. I know this. It’s actually less of a change of Margaret, huh? It’s more of a change of, of him. So that, if I, if I keep it on him, ugh. Okay, I just, we have to go forward. His sister has trouble sleeping and she has nightmares. And sometimes she sits still and is unresponsive for long periods of time. Claire drops the bomb. “From what I see your sister isn’t a seer. She’s suffering from a mental disorder.” And the funny thing is, he’s like, “Well, yeah.” (laughs) “She’s ben soft in the head since she was a child. That’s what makes her so special.” Claire writes out instructions for a mistletoe tea with tansy oil. So he wants to keep her subdued. He says, “When she’s lucid she goes on, she can go on a walkabout. She walks up to strangers and touches them and tells them things.”

Summer: And he doesn’t like that cause they don't pay!

Ginger: Well, exactly. And Margaret, he says, does enjoy the work. She’s able to, I guess, communicate or be with people, um, in that way. In its, I guess, I don’t know, I guess he knows just, or thinks he enjoys it. Claire wants to stop in on her patient the next day but, “Oh, uh, sorry, did I not tell you that we’re leaving tomorrow for the West Indies?” He wants his sister, now from this, as a, as a brother, yes as his, well, I mean yes he cares for her but also she’s his ticket so I don't know how to like, splice that. But he wants her to be docile and safe during the journey. He reminds us that sailors are superstitious and he doesn't want to risk having his sister upset people by giving her visions or whatev, or, giving her, whatever and being like, literally thrown overboard. And then, the kicker, which make me think, “La, okay yeah, you only say you’re concerned for your sister but your, your true colors show.” “Not when we have a wealthy client to administer to.”

Summer: Mm hmm

[1:13:35] Ginger: So remember this, dear listener, and I’m not gonna say anything more about this. Wealthy client. In the West Indies. This must be some kind of wealth. Not just that like, you can observe and say, “Oh, yeah, she’s a rich bitch,” but that you’re going all the way. I mean, that has, that is crazy town. What, not only all the way but also with, with an ill sister. Just as Claire’s about to leave the camera is on Margaret’s face. Now it looks like there’s a tear coming out of her right eye

Summer: Is that symbolic of something? Right eye tears?

Ginger: I don’t know! I’m, I don’t think so. Well, the camera's on her right side. But I'm wondering if we’re gonna, I’m guessing no now. Since she’s been soft in the head since she was a child they’re not only changing, the way they’re changing her is they’re getting rid of her love interest.

Summer: Her dead love interest.

Ginger: Yeah but she had one. I mean, it just sounds like that’s completely gone. Dear show watcher, don't worry about any of this (laughs). Just trying to think, if she's been soft in the head since she was a child likely they’ve done away with uh, the storyline from the book. Completely, not just a little bit but, I mean, changes it slightly because she was soft in the head in the book as as well, I will say that. Whereas the music with Young Ian was adventurous the music under the scene as Claire leaves and as we see the streets of Edinburgh is more ominous. We are off to the print shop. Young Ian is there with Brighid and he is, he’s acting, he’s, he’s like a silly little goose in love. He’s singing to her, they’re, he’s like dancing, and uh,

Summer: He’s singing poorly to her and even she comments on it

Ginger: And he looks so young. I mean, I know he's supposed to but he looks so  young, he’s like, so earnest. And uh, in a cute recall to Jamie and Claire’s wedding night when he thought that you did it like horses, Young Ian apparently has the same Lallybroch knowledge. So, there must be something about young males from Lallybroch

Summer: Heh, maybe

Ginger: I’m just saying. Jamie and Claire, we go back to the brothel room, are back in his room. The body is gone. We find out it’s been hidden in a cask of creme de menthe. Jamie is not worried about it being found because apparently he’s never met a scotsman…

Summer: I’ve never met an anyone that drinks it

Ginger: ...that drinks it. Claire wants to move out like, have a home of their own. Like, basically get out of the brothel, let’s start our own little place.

Summer: Dude, I thought he was joking at first. The first time I watched it (Ginger laughs) when he was like, he’s like, “Leave the brothel?!”

Ginger: “It’s free!”

Summer: He’s like, “Leave the brothel?!” Like, “Why on earth would you wanna leave the brothel?” Like he was joking like, “Leave this house of ill repute?!” and I was like, “No, he’s actually serious.” “Why would you wanna leave the brothel? We have,” but he’s not wrong! They have a roof over their head, they have fires drawn, it’s warm, there's bedding, there’s food, and neither of them are known for cooking

Ginger: And any money he makes he can, he can send to Lallybroch. Claire also, not just to have their own like, place and privacy. Claire also wants to help start bringing in some money and, of course she wants to continue her work as a healer and her time with Margaret that day she says, uh, you know, really inspired her it made her really remember that she wanted to, you know, do what she does best

Summer: She’s only been gone from doctoring…

Ginger: Like two days! (laughs)

Summer: ...for like, right?!

Ginger: Two days! “All the stuff I did! All of a week ago!” (laughs)

Summer: I’m like, she (laughs) I thought that was so funny. I was like, “Dude, you’ve only been in the eighteenth century for maybe a week at most.” Because I don't know how long it took her to travel from the stones to Edinburgh but, but still, it was not that long ago. I mean, she made it sound like it had been twenty years since she had practiced medicine.

Ginger: Uh, she says that she could, they could live in the print shop and she could work out of the back room or something. And she says that she’s…

Summer: Yes, I’m fairly sure she’d have a really hard time getting customers to come to get healing at the brothel.

Ginger: (chuckles) Yeah. She says that she sees them having a happy life in Edinburgh. And then we learn that Ian Murray is there looking for Young Ian. Jamie, as they go down, before they go down Jamie tells her not to tell Ian that she’s seen Young Ian and that he’ll explain later. Ian looks so good. All that gray. I love, I love seeing someone who actually look like he aged. (Summer chuckles) It just, it, it ende, no, it endears them to me even more. I always loved Ian but it endears me to him, him to me, even more. He’s shocked, of course, at seeing Claire and he says that Jenny and, he and Jenny grieved her for years. And again she, they stick to the truth as close as they can. She’s been in Boston. Heh. There you go. Now poor Ian, I really do like him and he’s getting all teary here, it’s so, and, yeah. So, apparently, Young Ian has a habit of running off and he’s been missing for weeks and he’s run away before and last time he had come to see Jamie. So this is a, at least starting to be a pattern. And of course, Ian and Jenny are freaking out. Jamie promises that if Young Ian shows up he’ll bring him straight home to Lallybroch. More secrets. Jamie and Ian walk out. Ian says, “Claire must’ve taken your news well.”

Summer: Oh yeah, about that….

Ginger: Jamie says he hasn't told her yet. He’s waiting for the proper time. So now we’re back at the print shop. Brighid and Young Ian are going at it.

Summer: I was modersatly uncomfortable with the underage doing it. I was like, “Eh, I don't wanna watch that! I don’t wanna watch that!” Nothing wrong with John bell, he just looks like he’s twelve.

Ginger: He does. Someone’s making a racket. He has Brighid leave to be safe and you can tell trouble is brewing. The music is dissonant and ominous. He confronts the man and the man is Sir Percival's um, dude, lackey, says that he wants casks. But there are no casks there. The old, and they kind of struggle. He, I think he pushes Ian up against like a, a cabinet or something

Summer: Pushes him up against the panel

Ginger: That like, the drape or the cover comes off and either he, they’re exposed thusly or as he kind of, kind of like, he hits it and either knocks them down or in trying to, you know, not fall down and trying to grab on for some leverage he comes away with one. But the man, Mr. Percival's lackey sees this pamphlet and then he, he gets a good look at it and these are some of the seditious pamphlets that Jamie prints. And these are more dangerous than the casks. So he finds them and he exclaims, “Oh, these are great! Duh du du du du du,” and he even starts to put some in his, in his jacket. He shoots at Young Ian, now I don’t know that the shot is from the book. But I know, cause I know they fight, but I know Young Ian does throw, is, isn’t it like melted lead or something?

Summer: All that really matters that you know is that in the book he dies. He burns the place down

Ginger: With the man

Summer: With the man in it

Ginger: Yeah. So that’s a big change. So there is a fire and it’s completely destroyed. That has not changed. And the fact it’s with Ian and this dude. That has not changed. What has changed is the fact that, not only that the dude lived, but also that the dude left with some pamphlets. (laughs)

Summer: Right. He left with evidence which is going go drive, which is going to drive them out of Edinburgh

Ginger: Which, yeah

Summer: They needed something because the thing that drove them out of Edinburgh before was something else

Ginger: Was Arbroath. So I think, and this part is from the book, I think what, in their struggle Ian, there’s like this burning pot that I think keeps the lead, I’m, I’m guessing keeps the lead, you know, or is ready at any time in case when you need to, to melt the lead to make um, the letters or whatever. And um, he throws some of that at the man, it gets him in the eye or on the face or something like that. But he staggers out

Summer: He didn’t get his other good eye. Also there’s, there’s a lot of flammable things in the print shop. Not the least of which being paper. But like, all of the like, I’m pretty sure the inks all have some sort of alcohol in them. So I mean, there’s a lot of flammable items in that, in that shop, so it is not the best place for a fire

Ginger: Well the fire’s growing and Young Ian cannot put it out. So he runs from it. He goes upstairs. Now is it because the fire is blocking the way out?

Summer: It could be. But people get stupid in fires. They always, they, they keep going higher, you know what I mean? It’s like, I don't know why, I don’t know why that, and I, I hope I never find out why that is but, you know

Ginger: Exactly. Jamie and Claire are in the room again and he can tell she’s not happy. Claire thinks that Jamie should’ve told Ian at least the fact that he had seen Young Ian. Jamie doesn’t see that his lying to Ian about Young Ian as being any different from their lying, including all the way through Paris last season. She says the lie they told to Ian that she told to Ian and that he’s going along with conceals something that Ian cannot comprehend, and that is her time travel. Claire says, “You have no idea what it’s like to be a worried parent.”

[1:22:22] Summer: Dude. You know this whole conversation drove me a little bonkers.

Ginger: Me too.

Summer: Because, number one, her, for her to say that to him was just like

Ginger: It was a (clown horn) move, to use your words.

Summer: It was a super (clown horn) move. It was a super (clown horn) move. “You’re not a parent.” Bull(clown horn). And he has left his son. The one he did kind of see grow up

Ginger: Yeah. yeah.

Summer: I’m like, it was a very short sighted argument on her behalf. And then his response was to go all super jealousy nonsense on Frank which is totally out of character, by the way

Ginger: And it's weird because, you’re right, it was just, it was just odd. The whole thing was odd. And then she talks, he brings up virtue. Virt, like, it leads to this virtuous, what? Claire says that Frank was a wonderful father to Brianna. And Jamie asks if he was a good husband and she says like, “Stop it, don’t go any further with this. I loved him but it was before I met you.” And then Madame Jeanne comes up and interrupts and reports that there’s a fire in the print shop.

Summer: I did think it strange that he would’ve preferred Brianna be chaste than be a, chaste and a criminal than…

Ginger: Yeah (laughs)

Summer: ...than, and this coming from a man who lives in a brothel, by the way. Chaste and a criminal than wear a bikini on the beach next to a dude.

Ginger: I’m just saying, there was so, it just some, it just seemed like a lot of, not a lot of dialogue, dialogue yes, but it just seemed like a lot of, I don’t even know. A lot of stuff, part of this is the problem of Voyager, I get it, and adapting it. You have to, you have to understand that. I, I do, I give a lot of leeway. Out of all three books thus far, this one the most, I think, but

Summer: Well I understand the need to condense some storylines.

Ginger: Yeah! But this was like, just, it just was all over the place

Summer: It seemed unnecessary. And I’m not, I’m, I’m waiting for the resolution as to find out why. Why it was necessary. I, I don't feel that it was yet but maybe in a future episode to come it will become crystal clear to me.

Ginge: I’m wondering if the thing, when they get to La, because it’s a given at the end of this episode that Jamie has a, has a fr, has another wife.

Summer: Mm hmm.

[1:24:32] Ginger: That is given out by uh, Fergus

Summer: Yes

Ginger: Okay. Now that this has been given out, or announced, we can say that all the stuff we’ve been going (makes creaky kind of noises) sideways sideways again, like, you know, I uh, stink eye. All the stuff that has been talked around by everyone but Claire is, is this wife thing. That’s what we’ve been eluding to this whole time, which we didn't want to spoil but now you guys know. So, without saying anything more detail about this, who, whoever this wife person is, I’m guessing that the reason, cause in the book there is the wife element, don’t get me wrong. But in the book it’s, because yeah, because the reason, oh, doesn’t even matter anymore cause it’s so like, I feel like so pulled in so many different directions. In the book when they made their way and they had Young Ian so there, there was a fire that took Young Ian, there was an issue with Arbroath, whatever but then they left. For whatever made them leave, they left. And they got to Lallybroch. This other wife thing comes into play at that point. Now at that point in the book they are happy. They have hella nookie. They’re not fighting like this. Ish. I'm wondering if they wanted them to have this tension going into that conversation or that scene. Rather than have them lovey dovey and have her turn on a dime, which is not really a dime, but you know what I’m saying. I’m, I’m being a little facetious. If there’s that underlying, “But you lied, you kept this from me,” that kind of thing before the big shadoobie happens? Then I see even more of a reason for Claire to, to blow up

Summer: Right

Ginger: Because something else that happened uh, he brought up Willie in the show superearly. Superearly. On the wrong freaking continent. Not the wrong. A different freaking continent. And it wasn’t even him in the books! Which is fine. I already said it was, but it doesn’t matter. The point is, it was brought up early. So I think, and I think Summer made a good point last week that the reason he did that was because there was so much he was hiding or so much that he hadn’t told her or wasn't telling her that he wanted to like, give her something, right? So at the end of the day it wouldn't be this load of shizzle. It would be shizzle, but it wouldn’t be an extra load. “Oh, not only do I have a wife! Haha! I’ve got another child!” I mean, so I think he was trying to do things like, you can forgive a person for a kid because you can’t blame the kid, you know, I can see that as being easier. And she took it pretty well.

Summer: Right

Ginger: I am wondering if, forget the Willie thing, but I’m wondering if they wanted to have conflict, unresolved conflict, because none of this is resolved. It, it keeps coming out and they have little spurts. Right? Little spats. Spurts of conflict with spats. (chuckles) I’m wondering if they wanted this conflict to be bubbling boiling under the surface so that when we get to the next thing, when this conversation about who the hell, who, “He has a wife? Excuse me?!” That thing that happened in the books, I think, my…

Summer: I know, I know but the, my, my beef, my beef is that there was enough conflict in the book…

Ginger: I know!

Summer: ...trading out book conflict for adaptation conflict? It, that’s, that’s the, the thing that drives me a little crazy. Cause there was plenty already and I, I don’t know. I mean, like I said, I, I am withholding final judgment. I wanna see where it goes. There had to be a reason for it. I’m waiting for it. I, I’m open. I’m open to your adaptation, Starz.

Ginger: We’re always open. I, I’m curious how this is gonna be resolved. Or at least, yeah, all that. So they leave and they go to the print shop to see what, to see, you know, to see what’s going on. To see the fire. Jamie’s like, “(Gasp!) Young Ian! He sleeps in the back!” So, for all he knows, he’s asleep. He, you know, cause he didn’t know he was gonna go out and get his…

Summer: Boff a barmaid.

Ginger: Yeah. exactly. So Jamie goes in to rescue him. So once they get there he’s like, “Ah!” And he goes up and he, and he goes straight in because he’s asumming he’s there. And he’s right. In a different reason, or a different way but he’s right that he’s there. Now is this, this is mostly from the book, right?

Summer: Yeah. But I’m also pretty positive they also went in to save the print press. In the book

Ginger: (gasps) Shut up.

Summer: So.

Ginger: He threw it out the window

Summer: Not in the show

Ginger: No, in the book.

Summer: I’m just saying, he saved the print press

Ginger: And the reason he saved it was, oh fudge a monkey’s uncle! Did they not do that either?

Summer: And they might, no, I, I don’t know, we’ll have to see. Cause if they get rid, and this is, okay. I know that we talk about adaptation and changes and, and changes are changes or whatever and, you know, we’ll see where they go but the only issue I have with major changes is butterfly effect. Because one little change here has to be carried through for the rest of the series. And it’s, it’s course correction. Do they get back on that path or are they forever following path that is now forever changed? That’s the only, like I said, it’s the only issue I have is, I get concerned about, course correction and butterfly effect

Ginger: And the thing about the print, printing press, again, without spoiling anything is, the reason Jamie tries to save, not only is it like so valuable, but the reason Jamie, in the book, saves the printing press is because it’s, cause of its value and also because well, he doesn’t know at that point, but, he thinks, it is, it is, once you have a trade and a tool of the trade, especially a very expensive one, you, you, you basically have  your life made. I mean, if you’re in jail no, but if you can somehow, if you have a printer, you can go almost anywhere and do that job. You are set, especially at that point in time, you are set up. Now if you’re arrested as a traitor, of course you’re not. Yeah, I’m, I’m curious, I’m, I’m wondering are, are they not gonna, the thing is, if they, if he doesn’t save it and we don’t have that one, there are other ones and they’re Starz, they’re Sony, they can make another one appear. So I’m not worried that if they, an easy course correction would be to don’t worry about the printing press if they can very easily manifest another one. That, I wouldn't care about, I’d be fine with that. Again, like they care what I think but, yeah, because you know when we say this we’re basically saying it’s not but, I will say this in a teasing manner so we don’t truly spoil. You may or may not hear about a printing press later on. That’s all I’m saying.

Summer: Well they have a whole thing, mm, never mind I’m, I’m stopping.

Ginger: (laughs) Fergus and Mr. Willoughby show up and Jamie, of course, saves the portrait of wee Willie. Huh. I get it, I thought that was, that was, that was sweet but we, a portrait of wee Willie over a printing press?

Summer: Well one’s irreplaceable. One is completely irreplaceable. You always take photos, that’s what they say. In a fire, that’s the thing you miss the most.

Ginger: But I hope Claire has the photos of Bree. So hopefully she took, they’re on her and they’re not, they didn’t leave them

Summer: Didn’t he carry them around with him, in the book? He kept them in his coat

[1:31:31] Ginger: Well, once in the book later on he does. But I, I don’t know about right then. So Jamie rescues Young Ian and all is mostly well. It appears they’ll be heading to Lallybroch next episode

Summer: Under duress. He didn’t want to go there. He was like, “No, we’re gonna go to this place,” and she goes, “No, we’re taking Young Ian home. To his parents.”

Ginger: The print shop sign is on the ground and it kind of signi, signifies A. Malcolm is over,yo.

Summer: Yep

Ginger: Young Ian tells Jamie that a man with a blind eye broke into the print shop and saw his pamphlets and that he works for Sir Percival. So now we know how much Sir Percival has to gain by arresting someone like Jamie. He, it’s like, basically it’ll make the rest of his life. He’ll get all kinds of things from, goodies from the crown. He says they’ll leave from Lallybroch but first they have to take care of business. He pays Mr. Willoughby the profits from the sale of the casks and asks him to pay the other men, Lesley and Hayes. That’s Gavin Hayes, I believe. Now, he also tells Mr. Willoughby to stay out of sight. So Mr. Willoughby’s not going with them to Lallybroch. He turns to Fergus, Jamie does. Did you hear this? He says, “Mon fils.”

Summer: My son

Ginger: Yes! He tells Fergus to find the man with the blind eye before he gets to Sir Percival. And again, tell Ned Gowan to bring news to Lallybroch about the matter he inquired after. And Fergus asks if there’s a better place for him to take milady? Jamie’s like, “Balgriggen is miles away from Broch Mordha.” Oh shiiiit! “Milady doesn't yet know about your other wife?” To me, I would’ve ended the episode right here. I wouldn’t have said the rest, but whatever. He says, “Not yet.” Fergus is all kinds of shocked. Jamie takes a final look at the burning print shop and the music is kind of sad here. And uh, then the camera goes from the fire to black and then the credits roll and the flute at the end, it’s ah, I’m not trying to make too big of a leap because I’m about a season ahead of myself but the flute that we hear reminds me of some more new agey type music. And the flute that we typically hear in new agey type music is reminiscent of Native American sounds

Summer: Mm. yeah, but that same flute, that same flute that you’re describing is also the same flute that they’ve been using for the celtic theme.

Ginger: That is true, they’re close or they’re similar but I don’t, I think it’s the sound as far as like the quality of the flute, the sound of the flute but also how, like the notes are the, the um, either the scales, maybe the scales, uh, maybe the, anyway it was, it was, not the quality of the sound like, “Oh, that sounded Native American!” No. But it was, I think, how it was being used. I don’t know if it was rhythm or notes but it was, it was much more reminiscent of that. It, it made me think of that more than, and I didn't think of anything celtic. But again, I could be off my head. So, I think honestly this is the first time you and I have been at thesame time, for almost the same spots, a little bit less than uh, I, I still love our show. I’m not talking badly about it but uh, the best thing we can say is what you said. And that is, we’re a little bit confused, but we’re open to having things explained as far as, and unfold, so that things do make sense

Summer: Yes and this may be the first time you went all like, serial/forensic files on an episode

Ginger: (laughs) I did it the last two episodes!

Summer: It was not as bad the last episode as this one.

Ginger: Sorry about that I, I’m just getting better or worse, however you wanna look at it

Summer: I’m going to say worse

Ginger: (laughing) Okay. So, what’s up next time?

Summer: Join us next week when we discuss episode 308 entitled, “First Wife.” Duh duh duh!

Ginger: Thank you as always so much for listening. We look forward to our next episode.

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[1:35:52] Ginger: Connect with us. Visit our website at outlanderpod.com. Find us on Facebook: facebook.com/outlanderpod. We’d love for you to join our Facebook community at outlanderpod.com/group. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram: @outlanderpod

Transcribed 12/28/17 by Shelsy J.