Episode 215

The Outlander Pod Episode 215: Discussion of ‘Outlander’ Episode 303 “All Debts Paid”

Ginger: This podcast is in no way affiliated with the Starz production or Diana Gabaldon. All views expressed are solely our own.

(music playing)

[0:16] Ginger Wiseman: Welcome to the Outlander Podcast where the men are kilted,

Summer Reynolds: ...the women are winsome..

Ginger: ...and the whiskey is neat. Welcome to episode 215 of the Outlander Podcast. I’m Ginger

Summer: And I’m Summer, and we are in love with all things Outlander.

[0:34 to 2:50] Advertiser’s content

[2:51] Ginger: This episode we will be discussing Outlander season three’s “All Debts Paid.” But first, we have a little listener feedback. So, we’ll save that goodness for a little bit later. Ya’ll don’t play. Not gonna lie. We said feedback, and even a shorter turnaround time, this time. And you guys performed. (laughing) You come to play! First up is Amber T.

[3:17] Amber: Hi! This is Amber from Ontario, Canada again. I just want to say that I’m a newish listener. I found Outlander exactly a year ago and fell in love. I binge watched Seasons 1 and 2 and ordered all the books online, and while I was waiting for them to arrive I found your awesome podcast. I listened to all the episode episodes but have not listened to the read along. I plan on reading the book at some point, but I fell in love with the television series first, and I don’t want anything to ruin that. I love how you guys don’t talk about spoilers. I really appreciate that. So, um, I really liked this episode. I loved seeing Fergus again, he’s one of my favorite characters. And seeing his hand get cut off was so terrible. I knew something was about to happen, but I did not expect that. The only thing I hated about this episode was when Jamie hooked up with Mary McNab. I was very very upset with him. So, when Claire and Joe Abernathy met, I got goosebumps and a tear prick. I don’t know if he’s an important character or not, but I feel like he might be. I don’t know. I loved Jenny and I feel so bad for her. I’m so excited to see what’s next.

[4:38] Ginger: Okay, Amber, I love you so much! (laughing) For so many reasons! First of all, I am glad that you, uh, appreciate our, you know, not, doing our best not to spoil, um, get ahead of ourselves in the read along or in the series. It is, it’s not a burden, it’s something we always obviously have to keep in mind, and, really work to not go forward, because we know, we hope we think we know what’s probably coming. Thank you so much for joining us, and we love hearing how people found our podcast and, um, we love that you’re a listener. And, uh, yeah, the read alongs are there for you whenever you are ready! Also, Summer, she used the word tear prick. (laughing)

[5:14] Summer: Yeah, I don’t know why you’re looking at me.

Ginger: I’m not really looking at you, we’re like across town from each other (laughing)

Summer: I mean, if you wanna feel a sense of pride in that, you go right ahead.

Ginger: I never said, “pride,” I just, it makes me happy, so, thank you Amber. About the hand, I can see where she’s coming from, and I know it’s maybe not as shocking, but I feel, I have to remind myself, Summer, that you and I are like those people, if I were watching the show with someone else who hadn’t read the books, and was seeing the episode for the first time, I would be watching them. Because, this is what I imagine, a very small scale, of what Game of Thrones book readers, slash show watchers, but people who have read the books, were watching the people who were sitting next to them and the episode of the Red Wedding. (laughing)

[6:03] Summer: The red wedding? There’s endless videos on YouTube.

Ginger: I know!

Summer: Of people doing that, setting up cameras for the Red Wedding.

Ginger: Oh my gosh, I,I, Fergus’ hand is not quite the Red Wed...the Wed...the Wed Wedding! The Red Wedding. I get it. But, at the same time, it’s, it is dramatic. But it just makes me think, “Oh, you know, that’s right! She didn’t know it was happening.” And like, we knew, and it was still, you know, kind of gross, but oh my goodness. So, it’s so fun! This is the best part. I love hearing about it from people who have not read the books and are seeing the show and experiencing the story for the first time. Oh my gosh. And, so excited was she that Amber called back.

[6:45] Amber: Hi, this is Amber again. I forgot to say in my last message about when Jamie and Mary hooked up, when he said, “Oh, I do that all the time,” or, “I do this all the time,” I think he was referring to him closing his eyes when they were gonna get intimate, because she’s like, “You can look at me,” and he said, “Oh, you’re a bonny lass, but I do this all the time.” So, I think that’s what he was talking about, him closing his eyes. Okay, thanks! Bye.

[7:19] Ginger: And, next up is Amy D.

Amy: Hey Ginger and Summer, it’s Amy D. with my thoughts on Episode 2, “Surrender.” First of all, I thought that “Surrender” was a beautiful title for this episode and that the meaning goes much deeper than, um, the surface. Um, for me, I really loved the parallels between Jamie’s encounter with Mary McNab and Claire’s attempts to try and reestablish intimacy with Frank. Um, they both surrendered to the idea that in order to survive they had to have human connection. They could not live as solitary beings, but they needed that kind of intimacy, and um, Jamie was with someone who accepted the fact that it wasn’t her that he wanted. Mary knew, Mary knew that it was Claire Jamie was thinking of. Claire wasn’t so lucky with Frank. He couldn’t accept her attempts to reestablish intimacy, so she channeled her passions and her surrender into medical school, which I think was something Jamie would have approved of. Um, so anyway, that, that was the thing that I really, uh, grasped from the episode, was the parallels between the two of them moving forward. Not just in terms of sex, but in terms of human connection and, and the desire to become a whole person again, or at least, more of a person than they had been previously without one another. Thanks.

[8:44] Ginger: And another repeater, she couldn’t get enough of us, Summer. She had to come back.

Amy: Hey Ginger and Summer, it’s Amy D. again. I have one more thing to say about episode 2 “Surrender.” As anxious as I am for things to move along and get us to the print shop, there is a part of me that really hopes we get to see those little punks in Claire’s first class of medical school failing miserably and flunking out while she and Joe Abernathy just smile and eat their lunches. And take their milk money. Am I the only one?

[9:21] Ginger: (laughing) That was cute, Amy. We’ll have to see. Now, our friend Michael M. was, um, under way, on route, and um, submitted his comments in writing this week and we said, “Okay, that’s okay this week. We will include them for you.” So pretend that this is in Michael’s voice:

“Howdy Ginger! Howdy Summer! This is Michael from Shawnee, Kansas. I will begin with my feedback with an apology for not being able to provide voice feedback this week. I’m travelling and do not have good means to edit and record, my recorded feedback, removing awkward pauses and ‘ums’ before sending it in. I was listening to your last podcast and received a notification that the Outlander podcast was live on Instagram and joined in your unboxing. I’m entertained by how the majority of the fan base ogles Sam. To show my own enthusiasm for the show I will declare my Outlander celebrity crush for Laura Donnelly. Overall, I enjoyed this episode of Outlander. My highlight was watching Laura portray Jenny at the end of the episode. It is my observation that Jenny meant it when she told Jamie that he brought this on himself, and that she was genuinely pissed at her brother for his plan. I think we will all miss Roman portraying Fergus, as I believe the next time we see Fergus, he will be played by someone older. My parting thought is, and Ginger sings, [Ginger singing] “Wouldn’t you give your hand to a friend?”

Next up, we hear from Ann S.

[10:51] Ann: Hi, my name is Ann Sonnen, and I wanted to leave feedback for episode 302 “Surrender.” I love Outlander, I can’t wait for each episode to air. I think the performances and production are amazing. I think the adaptation to TV is done thoughtfully and with great respect for the books. I’ve watched episode 302 once so far, so uh, this is my initial reaction. I love the way they’re developing the parallels between Claire and Jamie’s lives. I think they do a great job of developing the story from off the page. Um, the emotion and struggle that they portray rings true to how I read the book. Uh, even if some of the details are changed. There’s some details that I’d like to see more of in the 18th century, though. Uh, it seemed like they focused on the cruelty of the redcoats in episode 302 “Surrender,” uh, but they didn’t show all of the hardships suffered by the Murrays and the people living on their lands. They didn’t really show how hungry and impoverished the Scots were after the soldiers stole their most valuable resources. So I think that it would have been important to show that for Jamie, uh, as he’s making the decision to be turned in by Jenny. Of course, you know, the cruelty and the danger is probably reason enough, but I think the family’s hardship wasn’t fully explored from what the, what we think was happening at that time in the books. Uh, they were talking about collecting rents, but I doubt the tenants had much to pay for rent, and, uh, I wanna know where the kids were. They had a lot of mouths to feed. So those are just the thoughts I had about that portrayal. Otherwise, I will say that I love season 3. I can’t wait to watch “Surrender” again, I think the scenes with Claire and Frank were great and I thought the performances were amazing. Thanks so much.

[12:33] Ginger: So, Summer, someone agrees with you about the kids.

Summer: There were, they had so many. I’m not saying and and, and somebody had said, “Well, you know, in the book they weren’t mentioned a lot. All of the other children weren’t really mentioned,” I guess, in that section of the book. And that’s true, however, for the realistic nature of the show, if they were all small children, they would all be under foot. And if young Jamie was the oldest among them, they would have been there. Somebody would have been carrying babies, there would have been like, little toddlers toddling around. They just, they don’t just disappear.

[13:06] Ginger: And, we have now, Deborah.

Deborah: Hi, it’s Deborah S. calling from New York City. I just wanted to say this episode is so heartbreaking and hard to watch, and, I felt the exact same way when I was reading this part of the book. It just shows how each of them is truly lost without the other and when we see Claire’s visions of Jamie, he’s the perfect specimen of a man. He’s a warrior, he’s tender, he was shot in that gorgeous warm light and when he gave her his warm smile it just broke my heart. Uh, and this was in sharp contrast with the gray dreariness of her Boston home with Frank. It couldn’t look more uninviting. And I love Tobias Menzies, but I never really thought that he could appear unattractive to me, but as Frank he just offers zero appeal. Not in the beginning, but certainly now. And, what’s clear is that the relationship is completely over. There’s nothing there to be resurrected. Claire only lives now for Bree, and for becoming a doctor. And finally, we’re only up to year six and all I could think of watching this episode was, “How the hell are we gonna get through the rest of these years?” Anyway, thanks a lot, love you guys, love the show. Bye!

[14:25] Ginger: Thanks so much, Deb. I can tell you, Deborah, excuse me, the way we’re gonna get through all of these shows and all of these, hopefully all the books, it is with each other, with continuing the conversation, keeping and making new friendships, listening to shows, meeting people, having, you know, watching the show together, and, uh, getting through Droughtlander which is a real thing. And of course if you read the books, joining our read along (laughing). And, Erica.

Erica: Hey guys, it’s Erica B. from Massachusetts and I have a few things that really stuck out for me, was the size of Jamie’s cave. It was too big. I understand the logistics, you know, having to film in there and having Jamie be able to move around for, and the cameras and all that. But he had a desk! I, I don’t, I don’t get it, because there was definitely not a pleasurable place to be in the books. And, his opening on the cave was really large and I’m, I’m sure, like I know they hid the opening, but, it seems unlikely that it wouldn’t have been found at some point in the six years he was there. I was also not a fan of the long hair showing out of the hat. And I understand the TV show is a visual media and maybe it looked better, but it didn’t make sense for the Dunbonnet story, because we’re supposed to be able to not see his hair and, it hides it. Um, in terms of the surrender show title, I think everybody in the story today, or this last week, gave up something, whether literally or metaphorically, everybody definitely gave up something. A hand, their marriage, their brother, their self, it just, it was so heartbreaking to see everybody just surrender to life as it is.

[16:08] Ginger: Martina P. writes, “Hi Ginger and Summer. I’m on my fourth viewing of the episode. With each viewing my love for it increases. My first viewing is always clouded by my knowledge of the books and I initially tend to be somewhat underwhelmed. I am sometimes envious of the ignorance of the nonreaders. To remedy this, I have been watching the show with nonreaders and constantly observe their facial expressions. (Ginger laughs). I love it. That was I, many moons ago, watching season one. Sam and Laura are killing it in this episode. Sam is very convincing with very little dialogue and just facial expressions and body language. Laura is so fierce and emotional and portrays Jenny like no other could. The bad wig is still distracting me a little. I was super nervous about the scene in the cave, but boy, was this tastefully done! Mary McNab was wonderful. Loved, loved that tender and sweet moment between them. I was very proud that I was able to handle the beautiful and emotional kiss. In the book, I felt jealous for Claire. Not the case here. Mary needed this as much as Jamie. Sorry to say that I’m getting a little bored with Frank and Claire in this episode. Frank seems to be the saint, very consistent with TV Frank, while Claire is a little harder to like. Frank is super sensitive that Claire is closing her eyes during another awkward sex scene, and I’m thinking to myself, ‘Frank, did you not just see naked Jamie walk across the room?’ (Ginger laughs) The ending is very powerful. We can already hear the bagpipes while Jamie is taken away, then the camera switches to Claire walking off to the sound of ‘Scotland the Brave.’”

[17:46] Ginger: Whew. I agree. Summer, did you think Mary, the Mary McNab, if you’re gonna do it, it was, it was pretty tastefully done.

Summer: It faded to candlelight, it was fine.

Ginger: (laughing) Summer’s like, “Yes yes, it was fine.” Let’s hear from Jacquie B.

Jacquie: Hello Ginger and Summer, this is Jackie B. from Georgia. It’s my first time calling, hello! Um, I am giving some thoughts on recaps for Season 3 Episode 2 “Surrender.” Um, first of all, really pleasantly surprised, um, how they handled Mary McNab. Um, I did not think I would be as sympathetic to her as I was in this episode. She is just a pure sweetheart and, uh, everything just seemed a lot clearer, um, visualizing it as opposed to reading it in Voyager, as to her appreciation for the entire family and her um, her willingness to serve them in many capacities and not just the obvious, in the cave. Um, but, you know, I’ll allow it, I’ll allow it, and I was very surprised about um, Fergus’ hand, um, I was surprised that they actually, uh, cut it off. Um, it’s, for some reason, I did not think through some of the production stills that they were going to go that route, but I’m glad they kept that. Um, it was done very gruesomely, very horrifically, but in a wonderful way, and, sidebar, I think it worked out pretty well that um, Roman had a growth spurt in the course between filming seasons one and two, or season two and three. It seems like he was able to uh, make up for that six year time span difference pretty well. Um, and, oh Claire, when she heard those bagpipes playing “Scotland the Brave” in Boston and, uh, she was overcome, had to go ahead and give him a dollar and, you know, it was just a beautiful moment. Um, I am so excited for Joe Abernathy making his appearance in this episode. Um, he and Claire are going to be the most kindred spirits in the course of this, uh, very otherwise homogenous mixture of a med school. So I am so excited for them to start, uh, their friendship together. And one final note, uh, this is uh, I think for Ginger. If you have seen Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, I got a major Adam Pontipee vibe from Jamie throughout this entire episode, with his scraggly beard, hair, and living off the land, and being essentially a curmudgeon. I loved it and I was thinking about that most of the time during this episode. (laughs) Thank you all so much for what you do. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[20:33] Ginger: First of all, Jackie, thank you for calling in. We love hearing from everyone, but first time callers, woo hoo! That’s awesome, cause it takes a little guts to get your voice out there, we understand. And um, no, I’m ashamed to say, I don’t think I have seen Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. I think Summer has. (laughing) Have you, Sum?

Summer: No.

Ginger: Okay, so I have an assignment Jackie B., I will watch that. Now I may not have a response by the next episode, but I will, I will watch it and I will relisten and get the name and I will get back to you. Next is Jo B.

Jo: Hi, it’s Jo from Melbourne. Liked the episode, hated Corporal McGregor, but he’s a great example both of the complexity of who fought who at Culloden and why, and also of the inclusion of Scots into the British army. Uh, he’s a lowlander, but the highlanders will form a regiment, probably within about ten years, uh, under Simon Fraser of Lovat and go on to be very successful overseas, uh, and uh, even up to the British side of the American revolution. Um, for Claire and Frank I think it’s really telling that Claire doesn’t ask Frank about what he’s doing when he’s not with her. He says when he’s with her he’s with her, um, and that gets not challenged, but, when Jamie says, “You don’t need to be afraid when I’m with you,” she instinctively says, “Well what happens when you’re not with me?” Um, I think it’s indicative here of the disconnection between them that she doesn’t question what Frank’s doing when he’s not with her. “Scotland the Brave” is a great way of ending this. It’s actually a really modern song, it’s only about a hundred years old. Um, and the words were written down in the ‘50s. But, as Scots reinvented themselves in the early 1800s, about 1820, 1830, there’s a whole series of sort of retellings of what they are, um, and I think it’s great here that Jamie and Claire move into their new lives, their brave new worlds, if you will, with this as the soundtrack. They are brave highlanders. Bye!

[22:34] Ginger: And, now, Kristi R.

Kristi: Hey Ginger and Summer! It’s Kristi R. from New Mexico. I’m a long time listener, first time caller. I know, cheesy, I had to say it, though. Um, love your podcast, guys, it’s great. I love that I’m not alone in my little obsession with Outlander. And it’s great that I heard other people talking last week on your podcast that they listened and watched the episode multiple times, because um, I got made fun of by my husband for watching it more than once. (laughs) And so I thought maybe I’m alone in this, but, uh, anyway. So, to this week’s session, um, to this week’s episode, um, a few things is, I normally watch the episode obviously without my kids, and I usually shut the door, and it’s like everyone knows it’s Kristi doing her Outlander time. And my eight year old daughter happened to walk in during that dream sequence of Claire thinking about Jamie (laughing) and I hit the freeze button really fast on the remote and it happened, literally to be of just like, Jamie’s bum. Just, that was it. And my daughter who’s eight looked at it and was like, “Mom’s watching a show about a naked man!” It was just very embarrassing and hard to explain to the rest of the family. But anyway, so on to what I thought those, obviously that dream sequence for me, I loved it. I loved seeing um, it was shot really well, but then I just think about, I mean, I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve obviously been through a heartbreak before in my own life and I, I kind of thought about all those feelings that I had felt back in my heartbreak days of where you’re sitting there kind of pining over the guy that doesn’t want you anymore. And while she doesn’t have that same situation she is pining over a guy, I mean more than just pining over him, um, she’s missing him so bad and it’s somebody that, in her mind, she thinks she’ll never see again, at least in that moment. So I just found it to be so heartbreaking and beautifully shot and then she kind of, you know, her reality is just so far dimmed from what she really would love it to be in truth. Um, so I loved that sequence and then I also really was, um, moved by Jamie and Mary in the cave. You know, reading that, um, I remember being really angry about Mary and, you know, it’s kind of silly, but looking at the, at the episode you can really see just how broken he really was and just that tear that fell, ah! Out of Jamie’s eye, like when he had that tear that came down, um. I thought, wow, Sam did a great job of portraying that scene but also, you really just see Jamie, the character of Jamie being so broken and so needful, and also feeling so guilty is kind of the way I interpreted that. That he just had that guilt that he missed her so badly, and that, um, but he was reaching out for Mary for, for something. So, um, I thought that was really beautifully done, I actually rewound that a couple of times. And then finally, I loved the last scene with Jenny, um, you know when she, you know, had to turn him in and just, her tears just so, just felt so real. Like, I kind of, even as I was watching it and I knew what she was doing, because I had read the book, I thought at the beginning, “Wow, she really is like, crying.” Like it just felt really real, it didn’t seem like the setup until I was like, “Oh, this is the setup.” Um, so I thought she did a great job in that part and found her to be so believable as this heartbroken sister and, so I thought it was beautifully shot. I loved the episode, um, so those were my takeaways and, uh, I can’t wait to hear what you guys and the rest of your listeners have to say. Thanks!

[25:58] Ginger: Andrea P. writes, “Hi Ginger and Summer! What I really liked best about this episode was the transformation of Jamie into the Dunbonnet, and then the Dunbonnet back to the Jamie we all know and love by the end of the episode. Sam’s emotional journey for his character was truly heartbreaking to watch. I felt Sam’s eyes and the deepening of his voice really conveyed his utter hopelessness. I wish they would have shown more of his wild man existence over the six years, because then viewers would have really understood his isolation more. The episode made it look like he just came and went quite easily and often. As in the book, he only went to Lallybroch once a month and at night, which was a hard transition for him to be with people again. My favorite scene was actually the cave scene with Mary and Jamie, which is probably not a popular one with other viewers, but I liked Mary’s character in her compassionate and tender portrayal. Yes, everything is better with Jamie and Claire together, but we know he is alone for a long time, and Mary’s being there for him in what may be his last night of somewhat freedom. Jenny also saying, ‘Goodbye, good riddance,’ at the end with Jamie’s capture was gut-wrenching. And a marvelous performance. I did find it amusing how energetic Jenny was after just giving birth and riling her brother up trying to do some matchmaking, but I guess after having as many bairns as she has it’s business as usual pretty quick afterwards. What am I saying? This was the lady who was riding a horse just after giving birth in season one. Love the podcast and all that you do.”

Thank you so much Andrea. And now, Lisa T:

[27:29] Lisa: Hi lasses, it’s Lisa T. I was just calling to give you some of my feedback for Ep. 302. So, um, let’s just start right off the bat with Claire pleasuring herself. Um, that was a very Claire thing to do. Um, I thought it was awesome. I loved her fantasy cause I think everyone else has that one, so that was a gift from Anne Kenney. Um, but it also reminded me a little bit of Ep. 110 where Jamie is pleasuring Claire, uh, he’s at the snack bar, basically. Um, so I think it was just reminiscent of that and very poignant that he wasn’t there. Um, so, okay, uh, the next thing, um, oh yeah, so when, um, Jamie and Mary are in the cave, I thought that was a really beautiful bit of blocking and an ode to the wedding, the way Mary, um, came and took his hand, it was just like Claire, um, you know, checking Jamie out. So I thought that was really neat and, it’s, obviously Anne wrote that episode too, so I thought that was great. Um, and then the last thing was that baby Bree in that yellow cap! That little yellow hat is just like, you know, throughout Dragonfly we always talked about Jamie being the sun, so yellow is sort of, you know, associated with Jamie, and even though Jamie’s not quite feeling much like himself, there’s hope in looking at Bree because ultimately she’s sort of, um, the way that, uh, Claire can get back to Jamie. So those are my wee thoughts, um, hope you can hear them, I’m walking on a treadmill. Um, have a great day! Thanks, bye.

[29:05] Ginger: (chuckling) And, Matthew P.

Matthew: Hi Summer and Ginger, this is Matthew, uh, first time leaving feedback for Outlander with you. Just watched the most recent episode, 302, I’ve watched it twice now, and something that doesn’t really make any sense to me, bear in mind, I’ve not read the books, so any information that’s in the books that leads to more detail about the events this episode, like, I’m unaware of. We’re told that it’s six years since the battle of Culloden, so, has Jamie been living in this cave for all that time? He’s brought back to Lallybroch at the end of last episode and obviously he survived, I imagine, by his sister and the family there. And then he’s gone into hiding. So, he’s been in hiding for six years while the Redcoats have been looking for him, by building up this reputation as this outlaw. It seems a bit strange that he, that that’s, it doesn’t seem logical to me that he would be able to survive, that he would not have already been captured. And, the timeframe doesn’t really make any sense to me. I was wondering if anything in the books or anything else, um, explains a bit more about what Jamie was doing during this time, because it doesn’t really make much sense. Thanks, bye.

[30:22] Ginger: Well, Matthew, you may have to read to find out the answer to that, or to find out more, but, absolutely it is, it’s slightly different than the books, in that, it was much fancier than the books (laughs), his cave was really nice! But um, no, it’s six years, and uh, as another listener said, he seems to come, come and go much more freely than he does in the books, but yes, he, in the books he spent six years in the cave and uh, he goes in and out, but he, he basically is in hiding. And now, Melissa.

Melissa: Hi Ginger and Summer! I am so excited that I got to be a part of the podcast last week with listener feedback, um, this is Melissa M. from New Jersey. So here are my thoughts on 302. Um, first let me say that I loved this episode, and I thought that Sam Heughan did the most amazing job of characterizing #feraljamie. The look in his eyes, the way that he never stood up straight, crawling around, the nasty voice, the distant look, the silence. He deserves literally every award. Ever. Um, this is his season to win as far as I’m concerned. Um, but here’s what bothered me about the episode. A) Didn’t he wear the bonnet to hide his hair? Not have his locks flowing beautifully in the wind? I, I don’t know. Uh, number two, didn’t he go monthly to shave at the house? Number three, why was he hunting in the day? I mean, was he so feral that the British officers thought that he was an animal? Because I don’t know, but like a large redheaded highlander that’s been shooting deer in the daylight seems a bit risky to me. Plus I know that Diana wrote that he only went out at night, so I’m not trying to hate, but I’m just stating the facts. So you guys can talk about that as you will. Um, I also wanted to say, Ginger, I, I laughed because I totally thought about Gavroche when Fergus was like taunting the, uh, British soldiers. Like I heard that “Little People” song in my head immediately and I was like, “When is Ginger going to say it?” And then all of a sudden, when you mentioned it in your podcast I was like, “Yes!” I totally agree. Um, but I really want to talk about, um, Ronnie McNab. Um, you were talking about how he died in the podcast, but, um, you were like, “I don’t know what, like, where he died or how he died.” So I found the quote in Dragonfly in Amber that talked about his death, so I’m just gonna read that quickly. So it’s from chapter 30 in Dragonfly in Amber. “Ronald McNab was the tenant who had betrayed Jamie to the men of the Watch a year before. The man who had died for his treachery within a day of its being found out. Died, I remember, among the ashes of his home, burned over his head by the men of Lallybroch.” So there’s how that was solved, so, um, Ronnie McNab was killed by the men of Lallybroch. Um, other than that I just have like, one last thing to say. Jamie and Mary McNab. Dude, I get why you’re crying. Mary is the poor man’s ware. I mean the character, not the actress. The actress is beautiful. Just the character of Mary McNab. Alright, uh, I’ll leave you with that. Um, thank you so much for your podcast. I enjoy it and I am looking forward to next week’s episode. Have a good one!

[33:36] Ginger: Oh my goodness, so much, um. What I will say about the points you made, Melissa, regarding the, all the points you know about Jamie coming out at night, coming out once a month, his, the whole hat, the whole hat thing is… Apparently they said that they tried it and it, he looked like a rastafarian or something. It just, it did, it was, not work, it was not gonna work. So, they just put it on the head. But, um, it was, uh, yeah, they, you know, it’s, it’s the adaptation and, and that’s why things are gonna be, obviously, they’re gonna be a little different, and um, yeah. But, the thing about coming out at daylight, that was a little, that was a little risky. I don’t disagree with that.

Linda G. writes, “I’m going to start off by saying I absolutely love this episode! I have to say I was calling Jenny a meddling sister. I think she still will be, of course, we all know that. But she did come through for Jamie in this episode. But it must have been heartbreaking for her to go along with him. Giving him up and looking like a traitor. As far as the Mary scene, I thought it was going to be hard to watch, but she was very tender with Jamie, and Jamie just imagined it was Claire. As far as I’m concerned he did not kiss her the way he normally kisses Claire. The masturbation scene with Claire had me cracking up. I’m like, ‘Claire! Claire! Claire! You naughty woman!’ Can’t wait to see further episodes with Joe. I love how they sat next to each other. Two very diverse people that will become amazing surgeons. And now we have little Fergus, is a man of leisure. I love that episode! I have literally watched it five times. I love your podcast and love, love your live Facebook after the fact.”

Thank you, Linda G. I think we need to change it to “Our Live After the Fact.” (laughing) Instead of Live Aftershow. (laughing). And, Shelsy J.

[35:20] Shelsy: Hi Ginger and Summer, this is Shelsy from Orlando, FL. This is my first season watching the episodes as they air, so it’s been really fun to be with you guys in real time as it unfolds. I wanted to make a comment about how the show seemed to go out of its way to portray the English soldiers as heartless in this episode. Asking to see the body of the dead baby was very cruel and unnecessary. It was obvious she had given birth. Why on earth would they be suspicious about the baby’s death? It would have been a common enough scenario in those times. Why would they think it was related to the pistol shot, except that they wanted to cause more pain to Jenny’s family. And the execution style removal of Fergus’ hand was much more malicious than it needed to be. Also, McGregor’s apparent pleasure in the idea of seeing all of the Murray children killed for treason was...disturbing. So, I’m wondering if the picture this all painted is meant to serve as a contrast for Lord John in the next episode, and Lord Melton in the last episode. As English officers they have an unwavering sense of duty, but they are also far from heartless. It will become much more difficult to maintain the generalization of all Redcoats being bad. And from there comes the idea that people being more than their outward identity would suggest is central to the story as a whole. In season one we see Claire struggling to show that she’s more than just an English woman, and in season three that she’s more than just a woman. Joe is more than just a black man. Jamie is more than a rebel traitor. John and Hal are more than just Redcoats. Over and over we see that the characters in this story are so much more than what they might seem at first. And of course, that brings home the overarching tragedy that, while they’re apart, Jamie and Claire never really do more than scratch the surface of who they actually are. They are both so much more, but they need each other in order to remember it.

[37:14] Ginger: Wow, Shelsy. I think you need a podcast (laughing). And, if you read the books, we would love for you to be a contributor to our read alongs, because that’s exactly the kind of insights and comparisons that we love to hear. The penultimate is Cheyenne I.

Cheyenne: Hi Ginger and Summer, this is Cheyenne from Bellingham, WA. And, uh, these are my comments on episode 203, “Surrender.” Or I’m sorry, 302! Bleh, dyslexic in my head. Um, anyway, so, Fergus and Jenny, they totally steal the show. Um, I was there for the, the live chat afterwards, and I wanted to kind of clear up my comment about Fergus and his sort of like, kilt-like thing, that, that shows kind of his loyalty to Jamie. Um, no, it wasn’t a kilt, because they were outlawed, you’re right. But, it, he wore it, it was like this wool cloak thing that kind of slung around his shoulder and then tied around his belt and then kind of had a skirtish look, the way Jamie wore his, and it was just kind of a, um, a wardrobe choice I think from Dresbach maybe that was just, you know, she wanted to, to show his loyalty to Jamie, even the way he dressed. And the, the whole, “There you are, milord,” thing that said later was just, ah, totally awesome. And then Jenny, I totally got verklempt when she told Jamie like, that he hasn’t been around at all and, and, and, um, and he totally wasn’t. He was just like this other person. He’s just this Golem-like creature like we talked about. And then, um, some people were wondering why it wasn’t really a bonnet that he was wearing, it was kind of like a cap. And the more and more I thought about it, it reminded me of Dougal and the way he wore his cap like that, and maybe it was sort of a wardrobe choice that kind of shows his guilt for killing Dougal? Just a wonder. And then, um, something that kind of bothered me a little bit. Now I know that Claire is very, um, she’s very liberal, she’s very forward thinking and she’s very open with her sexuality, right? And so it’s no surprise that they show her sort of, you know, uh, getting it on solo under the covers, but it wasn’t that way in the books. She was more, um, she had dreams, didn’t she? Like fever dreams of Jamie. And, you know, she would wake up interrupted by these fever dreams and stuff. And, I wish they had shown that and maybe, you know, showed Jamie kind of having the same thing, because that’s sort of like, how they connected on some sort of like, higher level of their psyches, you know? Um, so that kind of disappointed me a little bit. I wish that it was, I don’t know. Um, maybe other people feel the same way, I’m not sure.

[40:18] Ginger: And finally, Tori W.

Tori: Hi Summer and Ginger. My name’s Tori, I’m a new Outlander fan, uh, I binged the show a few months ago and then started reading the books. I’m on book four. Um, I tend to be a little more sympathetic to Frank since I watched before I read, but I am so on the fence about the separate beds. I feel like Frank would have had to be the one to say, “We’re no longer having sex,” because Claire’s so good at compartmentalizing, that she would’ve kept him around as a warm sex toy for twenty years. And I think it’s unrealistic that a man who’s attracted and in love with her would really cut that part of their relationship out, but I do think that he would seek the intimacy elsewhere. And I think viewers could have still been sympathetic to him looking for love and affection from someone else, um, when he’s not getting it from Claire. So I wish they would’ve just left it as their like, failed attempt and then had it be ambiguous as to what really happened after that. But the good thing is that Caitriona’s really playing into the “Claire has been asexual for twenty years,” so I can’t wait to see how that manifests into Claire’s having a sexual reawakening with Jamie. So, that should make it pretty spectacular. Okay, thank you! I love your show! Bye.

[40:40] Ginger: Thank you so much, Tori, and thank you for calling in. Thank you, all of you, for your comments and your feedback. We love hearing from you.

[41:48] to [42:57] Advertiser’s content

[42:58] Ginger: And now we finally get to discuss what we’re here to discuss and that is Episode 303, “All Debts Paid.” The camera opens on a beautiful dog who gets up and runs away, and then goes up and scans along a table that looks like it’s set for a birthday party. Now I tried to count the candles but I didn’t do very well.

Summer: I think it was her sixteen, because it was the cake from later.

Ginger: Oh yeah, okay, it must, that’s what I thought. I was trying to get, I was trying to get some like, it has to be sixteen. So I started to count and I’m like, “Okay, I know this was in front of one, so I’ll count two here,” and I got all the way around, I did my best and I still only could get fourteen. And like, oh, okay, whatever. But um, there was a cake and it was, we believe the one that they had later. And it was Boston 1956, so things have changed. Frank is cooking breakfast now. An English breakfast, a proper English breakfast (said in an accent). Okay that was like, bad fake English with bad fake Scottish thrown in. Oh my goodness. Trying to cook the American out of their very American daughter. Not cook his daughter, but cook, give her food, feed her enough British stuff, enough English stuff that she’d lose the American. Or at least tamper it down a bit. They seem to be a good pair now. Whatever that means, they seem to at least be somewhat stable in how, in whatever arrangement they’ve come to. She’s in, she’s heavily in med school, and, uh, what she’s learning about at the moment is gallbladders. And she said, “You know what? Heck, I’ve read enough of this. I, I could use a break. Let’s go see a film tonight, Frank.” And she mentions a few and he, he doesn’t say no. All he says is that he’s seen them all. At least he’s honest, though.

[44:37] Summer: Honest? Honest about what? That, that he’s cheating on her?

Ginger: Well he’s honest that he’s seen them. (laughing)

Summer: Mm hmm. I think we can all safely understand that they have, the decision the writers made is that he’s a cheater. Right?

Ginger: Yes. And he says, well we don’t, we don’t hear it yet, I don’t think it’s in that conversation, but yes. It definitely is understood that he’s with someone else, at least part of the time. And he says, “I’m being discreet,” or, “You asked me to be discreet.” And she’s like, “Oh, you’re discreet!” (laughing) “So discreet I didn’t even know.” (laughing again) “Until now.” Or maybe, she must have known. She’s not stupid, but she is quite busy. And in runs a less wee Bree than we’d seen last week. Very very sweet.

And then we’re taken to Ardsmuir prison. It is 1755 in Scotland. In which, we meet Ginger’s new crush, Lord John Grey, played by David Berry, who’s also a singer.

[45:38] Summer: I wrote down, I said, “Yes! Here’s a Redcoat I can finally feel comfortable lusting after.”

Ginger: You didn’t feel comfortable lusting after BJR?

Summer: Uh, I did not (Ginger’s laughing) lust after BJR. Mostly because he was a rapist and a sadist and all those other things. And I, I don’t have the Tobias thing you have.

Ginger: (sighing)

Summer: But David Berry’s pretty. He’s real pretty.

Ginger: He’s very pretty. He’s real, dude, girl, oh yeah. So Lord John, book readers will know, is coming to be governor of the prison, to replace Mr. Quarry. Thankfully, they have drinks. So basically, Mr. Quarry, he’s walking them in, him into the prisoner, the new governor, kind of explaining, very quickly, uh, it reminded me of one of those, like the walk and talk like they do on Grey’s Anatomy or something. I, I guess they have it everywhere, it was in um, who was really well known for that?

Summer: Aaron Sorkin

[46:23] Ginger: Yes. Yes. It reminded me of that kind of thing where it’s like, “Oh, and here’s that.”

Summer: The West Wing

Ginger: Yes. “Here’s that, you have this, watch out for this thing, this guy’s gonna do this, oh, and there’s, there’s this one prisoner that you might wanna meet with and da da da. And it’s all really pretty crap, but, you know, you can go hunt this and, and they have good whiskey.” So it was really like, “Okay.” And he mentions, one of the pastimes is looking for that darn French gold. So no, we have not heard the end of it! And the prisoners, Quarry confirms, are Jacobite highlanders. Quarry also tells Lord John that he’ll have to deal with one prisoner, at least, someone who’s been singled out as their de facto leader. It’s Red Jamie Fraser. Jamie’s the only one of them kept in chains. And, that he said that they call him Mac Dubh. And he’s like, “I don’t know what it means, but whatever.” And I wrote in all caps, “OH MY GOSH THEY KEPT MAC DUBH!”

Summer: How could they not?

Ginger: I know, I know, I know! But I just, still! So, for those of you who are not book readers and have no clue what this means, or no clue of the significance, well the significance we don’t know yet, because, well, excuse me. I’ll tell you what it means. But, it, the reason I’m freaking out is because it’s like, used forever and a day after this, after this season. One of his forever um, identities, as we all, always talk about how many identities Jamie Fraser has. So Mac Dubh, what it means is Son of the Black. And the reason you’re like, “black what?” Well his father, Brian Fraser, was known for his black hair. It was so black that they said that he was born when his father lay with a silkie, which is of course a seal that can come, female I believe, seal that comes to the land and gives up her, her pelt. And then she can, if it’s hidden I think she’s, stolen, I think, she’s, you know, your property, or she becomes your wife or, she’s yours, but then, you know, obviously, if she can get it back she can get back to the sea. But, um, that’s obviously fantasy, but he’s called Mac Dubh, son of the black. And, his father was called Brian the Black. So, he, Jamie, Mac Dubh, acts as their spokesman, the other prisoners’. Quarry suggests that he might wanna continue the thing he set up, which is dining with him once a week, and uh, Lord John’s like, “Um, yeah, no.”

Summer: He says, “Dining with the prisoner,” but he also clearly knows who he is.

Ginger: Yeah.

Summer: He recognizes that name.

Ginger: Yeah

Summer: So I think it wasn’t just, “Eh, I’m not gonna eat with a prisoner.” It was, “I’m not gonna eat with that prisoner. Not that dude.”

[48:50] Ginger: It’s a lonely outpost and not meant as a reward. And that’s straight from the book as well. And we hear more to that from Jamie later on. So the prisoners are walking back to their cell. And I got a very Les Mis vibe. Again, I think the Les Mis thing, besides the Gavroche, which is just about the boy, the Les Mis thing about this episode was probably because of the prison, and, you know, the whole Jean Valjean and the darkness and the chains and, and I, and the stone or the brick or whatever on the walls. And it was just so dirty and dingy and very Les Mis. And I wanted, I kept expecting them to say, (singing) “Look down! Look down! Don’t look ‘em in the eye.” You know, I just, I expected them to (singing) “da da da da da, da da da da da,” I don’t know. Whatever. Yeah, I just got this very dark and dingy Les Mis vibe. When the prisoners get back into their cell and they sit down, the camera’s on Jamie, and you hear someone say, “So, you’ve seen the new governor then?” That voice was so familiar. And I wonder why, I wondered that they wouldn’t show the speaker for so long. And then they do. So Summer, what was our biggest surprise this season so far?

Summer: Uh, the decision to keep Murtagh alive?

Ginger: (squealing) Yay! Yes! Oh my gosh, so there’s been a lot of chatter. A lot of people who have hoped, I almost said, but, I (laughing) I almost said, “Madonna herself.” Not Madonna. Um, Diana (laughing), Diana herself has said, “Yeah,” she, that she wished that she hadn’t killed him off because he, for whatever reason, but he’s, he’s a, he’s such a mensch and, Summer, I know you wanted him to, you were a fan of keeping him around..

Summer: Mm hmm.

Ginger: I was not anti-Murtagh. I love Murtagh, I’m so glad we have him. I was not anti-Murtagh, but I was, put it this way, if they kept him, obviously that would be like, icing, right? It would be a bonus. If they didn’t keep him, I’d be okay. Because he’s already not in the books, so I’m used to him not being there. So I wouldn’t be completely disappointed, but if they chose to keep him, I would just be like, “Oh my gosh!” So I was super happy. What, what did you, what did you think? I knew you were a fan.

[51:01] Summer: I, I like keeping Murtagh. I think that book Murtagh didn’t have nearly as an impact on me, as much of an impact on me as show Murtagh did. So, book Murtagh, I was sad to see him go because I had enjoyed the camaraderie he had created with uh, Claire. Um, but, show Murtagh, I think, was just so fully fleshed out that I was, I was going to be sad to see him go. My only concern at this point is butterfly effect.

Ginger: Mmm.

Summer: So, we’ll see.

Ginger: We know what happens at the end of this episode, right? He’s sent away. So, at least we have him for one episode. We don’t know what’s gonna happen, like, you’re right, we don’t know. If, put it this way. If what they did, meaning keep him, is in this episode and this episode only, there’s nothing to worry about with the butterfly effect. Necessarily. But, that’s the thing. We don’t know what we don’t know. Besides the voice, cause when Summer and I, we didn’t watch this together, but Summer and I, um, watched it separately, but when I saw this episode the first time, I heard that voice and I went, “(gasp!) What?” And then they didn’t show it and I was like, “Oh nooo.” Of course they’re not gonna show it, at least right away. Like, oh my gosh, they’re gonna totally slip us in there, or make us wait. Did you have that feeling too? Did you know the voice right away?

[52:16] Summer: Pretty much.

Ginger; Yeah, I mean, oh. I was like, “Oh my god, Murtagh!”

Summer: It’s pretty, um, that’s how you sounded? You had to poop?

Ginger: (laughing) Summer!

Summer: (laughing) It sounded like..

Ginger: Don’t get intimate with me, that’s personal.

Summer: It sounded like you were getting ready to poop.

Ginger: No, don’t talk about that.

Summer: Then stop talking like that.

Ginger: (laughing) I wrote down, “I’d know…” because they, put it this way. You heard this voice, they didn’t show you the face. And then the camera came from the other side, because when you’re with Jamie you’re behind Jamie. When the camera went and showed his face you’re like, a hundred percent you’re like, 180 like, toward Jamie. So, opposite side of the cell. And, at first, because of the angle, I had to, I think his head was down a little bit, and, I, it just, he wasn’t looking face, full face in the camera. Man. But, if you know that brow, I wrote down, “I’d know that brow anywhere.” The conversation they have about the tartan is, what I believe, how they’re letting the viewer know that the tartan was outlawed. So they don’t come back to it, and no one gets punished, so they definitely kind of bit out of the Ardsmuir sequence here, from the book. What did you think about the, um, the, I almost said squirting. Not squirting. Squeezing the tartan in there.

[53:22] Summer: My only concern with them bringing them, having Murtagh holding the, the piece of tartan was that, in the books, that got somebody flogged. And I was like, “Eh, he’s not gonna take a flogging for Murtagh, is he?”

Ginger: Yes, mm. Oh, he totally would, but yeah, I get it. Were you surprised that he didn’t do the flogging?

Summer: Was I surprised they didn’t do the flogging? I don’t know that it was necessary for time.

Ginger: That’s my thing is I think it was time. They moved sooo fast this episode, like, whew. I was like, “Dang, they got a long way to go.” Oh man, we’re gonna get there cause this was a difficult epi, ugh. It was just, whatever. We’ll get there. But um, yeah. I’m not disappointed, I’m not upset, and I was a little bit surprised, but, yeah, for time’s sake, I think it it, it just had, it couldn’t, it couldn’t happen.

Jamie says that the new governor is quite young cause Jamie, because, okay, the prisoners had come back to the cell, Murtagh asks him a question, he answers the question, we see that it’s Murtagh, and now, and then Murtagh talks about the tartan, and now we’re getting the point of of, of this whole thing. Murtagh’s asking him basically, “So, what’s the new, the new dude like? What’s the new governor like? How is our, is our life gonna change? Is it gonna get harder? Is it gonna be the same way it’s been?” You know, they want to get an update on who their new, who ha, the guy who has their life in his hands. And Jamie says, as I said, “The new governor is quite young. But he carries himself well.” This is wonderful because, in the book, Lord John Grey is known, as probably a lot of Redcoats are, for his posture and his dress. Lord John, that’s one thing, that’s not a spoiler, Lord John, uh, wherever he is, he is impeccably dressed and impeccably mannered and has very very good posture. And that is someone where, if you, if they’re not impeccably dressed, or if the hair’s out of place, you know something’s going on, or you know something’s not right.

We find out, unfortunately, that Murtagh is ill. And, bitten by rats. (laughing) Jamie carries thistle with him, and he tries to have Murtagh take some. He prepares a, a like, uh, I guess, taking the head off of it, or taking the flower off, he does something to it, this is something he learned from Claire. He smells the thistle and says, “I learned the trick from...a lass, who knew a fair amount.” He can’t bring himself to say her name. And, I know, Murtagh doesn’t quite catch on, but, I mean, that’s okay.

And then we go back to Lord John, and Lord John is fancy pants. Look at those, I mean, he’s got so much, so much clothing on him. I can’t imagine, it’s gorgeous to look at, but I can’t imagine it’s easy to wear. You know what I mean? Just, in Scotland it’s probably, you know, chilly, so, it’s not, that’s not that bad. I mean, you could use the layers, but. And, Lord John calls Jamie into his quarters. His hair looks dark here, but, later in the episode, it’s not bleach blonde, but it does look like a darker blonde. And in the books he is fair. At the very end of the episode, when he’s taken Jamie to Helwater, cause they’re outdoors, and you see the sun, or the light reflected on his, on his ponytail, I guess, on his, his hair. Lord John tells him that he’d like to continue Quarry’s understanding, and that is of having him there, you know, once a month, and having a meal together and discussing things. As he tells him this, he goes to get his own food that’s been brought in and he freaks out about this rat that’s running by and, uh, he asks the other prisoner there, who’s basically his servant, to go get a cat. And have a cat there to get, to help with the, with the rats. And then he asks Jamie, like, “Look, do you guys have rats?” Or maybe he asked the servant and he’s like, “Do you guys have rats?” And they’re like, “Oh yeah, lots.” And uh, I think it was a quite, it was a nice gesture to offer to have cats for every cell, but um, Jamie kind of steps in and says, and this is from the book too, I believe, “Prisoners may not like that because, that’s like their free meal.”

[57:27] Summer: They don’t want competition. If they can catch them, though. They don’t catch them all the time.

Ginger; (laughing) If they can catch them.

Summer: I just, I liked the fact that he was like, “Do you have any cats in the storeroom?” And I was like, I was envisioning a storeroom full of cats. Can you go into the cat room and bring me back a cat? Like, how many cats does he think is down in there? How many cells are there in Ardsmuir that he was gonna have a cat for every one?

Ginger: 137

Summer: And he had, you think he had 137 cats in the storeroom?

Ginger: (laughing)

Summer: He must because, I don’t know, that sounds like a good number to me.

Ginger: They gave Jamie Quarry’s line, if I’m not mistaken. If not verbatim, then he gave him the sentiment. “God knows what you did to be sent here, but for your own sake, I hope you deserved it.”

Now we’re in Boston, 1958. Claire has completed medical school. But man, the time runs fast. And we see Joe Abernathy again. Wee Bree is taking a picture and Frank is helping her. He even says, “3,2,1 cheese!” (laughing) To hear, Frank is like so proper to say, “Cheese!” It was just entertaining. And then, Frank and Claire pose. So that was a little…

Summer: Awkward.

Ginger: ...uh, yeah. And I have to say, Frank in those glasses, that just did not do it for me. Those thick black glasses.

[58:38] Summer: So wait, Frank in a, in a Redcoat uniform, or, or the Tobias Menzies, in that uniform, assaulting Jamie does it for you? Because that didn’t seem to be a problem, but now you got your first hard stop with glasses?

Ginger: No, it has nothing to do with his actions, it’s just, it’s his looks.

Summer: Yeah, well…

Ginger: I’m not talking about what he does

Summer: But he had a specific look when he was assaulting Jamie. That look didn’t bother you?

Ginger; The look of him, he wasn’t in a red coat when he was doing that, either. He was in like, one of those, well, he was either naked or he was in one of those poet shirts, uh, shirts. And he, he took his hair down and looked beautiful. (laughing)

Summer: You’re gross.

Ginger: I’m so sorr..I’m not sorry. It’s Tobias. It’s not what he did. I don’t like what he did. What he did was disgusting. But he is a beautiful human being. He’s a beautiful man.

Summer: Okay.

Ginger: As BJR (laughing)

Summer: Mm hmm

[59:33] Ginger: Oh goodness. Oh goodness. So no, those, those, uh, those glasses not so much. And he, he says, after the pictures are done, he, he’s, I don’t think he looks at his watch, but you could tell he’s like, getting a little antsy. And he’s like, “Oh, shouldn’t you, shouldn’t you guys be leaving pretty soon?”

Summer: No, no, he was like, “I thought you had reservations at six,” or whatever it was. It was textbook, “I thought you were gonna be gone, cause clearly I have something else going on, cause, we know I wasn’t going with you. Aren’t you gonna be gone?” You knew something was coming when he did that.

Ginger: And I thought that was weird. I mean, not that he had someone, but I thought it was odd that like, really, you couldn’t just, you couldn’t just, like, go to a party? I mean, I guess it was the after party. I don’t know, I just, thought it was so weird that he couldn’t go one night without shtumping somebody.

What do you think about Wil Johnson as Dr. Joe Abernathy?

Summer: I’m enjoying him.

Ginger: I’m very much enjoying him. So, someone’s at the door. And of course, it’s Frank’s mistress. You know, the discreet one.

Summer: He could do better.

Ginger: She just looks, she looks just as surprised to see Claire as Claire is to see her. The mistress knows something’s wrong. Claire then realizes what’s going on. Bree sees the woman at the door and Frank says to her, “Go play, Brianna.” (laughing) I’m like, “Yeah, that’s gonna work. Well, it worked. She goes away. Claire takes Bree and, uh, and the rest of the party and they, she says that they’ll leave early. I wrote, “Awkward!” It was painful to watch, wasn’t it. I don’t mean like, emotionally painful, I mean like, oy. Just...we’ll come back to that, because we, that scene’s, or that storyline part is not done.

We’re back in Scotland and a man with a walking stick comes upon a wagon of Redcoats. He’s kind of mumbling and sounding kind of funkytown, and the Redcoats are like, “Yeah, let’s bring him with us.” So he’s taken to Ardsmuir and put in bed and Lord John has Jamie brought to him. And he calls him Mr. Fraser and says, “Thank you for coming. I summoned you because a situation has arisen in which I will require your assistance.” Like, like Jamie has a choice? Thank you for coming? Well, I commanded you. Why, why would he say that? The man was named Duncan Kerr, and he was found wandering the moor near the coast. He’s ill and his speech seems deranged. He seems to be referring to things that the Crown’s interested in. And Lord John says he needs Jamie to interpret what the man is saying. He speaks a little English, but also Gaelic and French. Jamie says he must decline, he’s a prisoner, not an interpreter. And John says, “I’ll remove your irons if you help.”

[1:02:10] Summer: So my question is, does he sound deranged, or does he just sound like he’s speaking Gaelic?

Ginger: That’s a good question.

Summer: They’re like, “He’s speaking nonsense,” no, he’s speaking Gaelic.

Ginger: It’s not the same.

Summer: And how convenient is it that Duncan Kerr is speaking in the three languages that Jamie can speak.

Ginger: Oh, well, yeah. Granje.

Summer: French, Gaelic, and English. And, Duncan Kerr randomly was speaking English at the worst times.

Ginger: No kidding

Summer: Like, he was speaking French and Gaelic while it was just Jamie hovering over him, then the second the Redcoat walked, that uh, L, Lord John Grey walked back in the room, he’s like, “Oh, let me switch to English. And incriminate myself further.”

Ginger: Jamie had those irons on for three years, which means he’s been there for three years, so that plus six years in the cave, that’s nine years. So they’ve been apart for nine years.

Summer: I just don’t think that Lord John Grey was very smart when he removed the irons before he performed the job.

Ginger: Exactly. I know, that was a little, yeah, I agree. The conditions that Lord John has are that he give a full and true account of what Duncan says, and that he only tell Lord John what he says. Jamie has, in return, has a condition. Blankets and medicine for all the men. Lord John says he can’t honor it. Jamie says, and he’s like, “I would if I could, but I can’t. I literally can’t. We don’t have those supplies.” And Jamie says that he’ll settle for one man being treated, Murtagh Fitzgibbons. And Lord John says he will try his best.

[1:03:35] Summer: Always save Murtagh.

Ginger: Always. Apparently so, huh? And then we’re taken to Boston, same day as the party. Frank gets home, Claire’s already there. Bree’s in bed. And uh, he’s, he’s drunk. He’s, not wasted, but he’s drunk. And he’s totally staggering up the steps. Claire’s not upset he’s with another woman, although that’s up for debate. She’s upset that he invited her to their home. “Where our daughter lives.” For Frank it was a logistical matter. Claire took the car for the party and he didn’t have a ride. So his girlfriend, mistress, was there to pick him up. But Claire’s more upset by the fact that it was on her graduation day. He couldn’t hang around, or at home, for one night. Her colleagues were there. Et cetera. Frank confronts her on her fairy tale and righteous anger. “You humiliated me in front of my new colleagues.” He replies, “Welcome to the club.” And then, “You’re not as good an actress as you think you are, Claire. Do you honestly think that anyone at Harvard believes we’re happily married? You’ve convinced no one. And let’s not forget, it was your idea to lead separate lives.” Now I’ll have to admit, Claire is quite precious here. She has a right to be upset that she was at their house, the woman, and that she came on her graduation day and it, with it, with the potential exposure to Bree. But to automatically call this other woman a harlot? It was her idea and she expected him to take a lover, even. But Frank is quite defensive of his mistress. He yells at her, “Don’t, do not call her that!” And goes on to explain that she has a PhD in historical linguistics. I don’t know why that made me laugh, but it did.

Summer: It was, yeah, that didn’t impress me. I was like, “Uh, hm, sorry.” She still can’t find a man who’s not married, so I’m not that impressed.

Ginger: Exactly. And, uh, then he says, “Jealous now? Green ain’t your color, Claire.” Oy. So, Frank is honest. He admits that maybe he did want to hurt her. To give her a taste of her own medicine. Pun intended. And he calls her Dr. Randall. Oh boy. He says, re: effing his mistress in their bedroom, “I think our bedroom is far too crowded already.”

Summer: And the beds are too far away from each other.

Ginger: That too. (laughing) It’s a little inconvenient. “Fine,” Claire says. “Let’s just get a divorce.” Their neighbors, we find out, got divorced and we learn from Frank that Jerry, the husband, didn’t get to see his children. He lost them. He doesn’t see them very much, but he lost custody and, uh, his wife, his wife has custody, or main custody. Frank is very emotional and very moving here in this scene. It’s, it’s a hard scene to watch. They’re both very emotional. And he loves Brianna so much, he will stay in this marriage because he does not want to happen to him what happened to his neighbor. He says, “I would never let that happen to Brianna. Never.” Claire says that she’d like, “How, how could you even think that?” She would never keep him from Bree. And he says, “Forgive me, Claire, if I don’t risk everything on your promises. You have not been very good at keeping them.” Right about here the Frank theme appears, just as the scene ends. He comes and sits on the couch next to her and she’s drinking and he takes his glasses off. And he says, “There’s a reason we’re so terribly bad at charades, my darling.” And it is, it is, the saddest theme of all of them.

[1:07:10] Summer: The only thing I really took away from this scene, um, was, well a couple things, I guess. One, this is not a conversation for drunk people. Two, that, um, Millie and Jerry got divorced! They were so happy in the last episode.

Ginger: And they like to knock boots, apparently.

Summer: Yeah, I can’t believe that Millie and Jerry got divorced. She was talented.

Ginger: Yeah

Summer: She had some kind of talent, we don’t know what it was yet. Still.

Ginger: Well, it was in the bedroom. But yeah, what did you think about this, let’s spend just a moment or two on, on the party. Did you think, okay, let’s say, let’s just go with everything. It was Claire’s idea they lead separate lives. He’s being discreet. Obviously having a mistress showing up at your party’s not discreet, but he gave his reason. But then he also said, “Oh maybe I did want to embarrass you.” So, he’s a little, he’s a little icky day here, I think. But, I have to side with Claire at least, at least on the, “Are you kidding me? You can’t wait, all the nights, all the nights that you have off, or all the nights that you schtuck someone or want to go out, whatever it is. The one night that I, even if you’re not celebrating with me, like, the one night that I have my daughter here that we may, we may be going out, you couldn’t wait one night?” (laughing) I’m just like, that I’m with Claire on. That I’m with Claire on. Claire’s self-righteous and all pretty stuff, sorry Claire, I, I don’t buy it. But that timing, it, I think she, yeah, there’s a lot going in there. I’m not blaming Claire, but, the timing was not Claire’s fault. The timing was Frank’s fault. And that was just ridiculous. That, that didn’t have to happen. The conversation had to happen, obviously. The, the situation had to end. It had to happen. But, um, his choice of kind of basically bringing it to a forefront, bringing it up is, uh, it didn’t have, it didn’t have to be that day. That’s all. He could’ve avoided this, is what I’m saying.

And then we’re taken to Ardsmuir. Jamie is still speaking with Duncan Kerr. These are the things that we learn. The gold is cursed, he tells him to guard himself. And these are just some random ramblings that we get. This is what Duncan says. “She heard them. It is theirs, for the sake of him who died. Her brothers and her home, she is death. Mackenzie is dead. All dead. Colum, Dougal, Ellen too.” And as soon as I saw “Ellen too,” (laughing) you know what I heard, right?

Summer: No

[1:09:46] Ginger: (singing) “And Ellen Sue, you have to tell her.” (laughing) Sorry. Miss Saigon. Oh lord. And then he hears “the white witch.” As soon as he says the words “the white witch,” the Jamie and Claire love theme comes up. Who is she, the white witch? He says that, “she seeks a brave man. A Mackenzie.” He also says, “She will come for you.” And then conveniently, Duncan Kerr dies. (laughing)

Summer: Right?

Ginger: Right in the middle of his blabber. (laughing) Jamie tells Lord John what he said regarding the witch. Lord John doesn’t believe that’s all, though.

Summer: Well, let’s, but, Lord John Grey’s like, “Well, Mr. Fraser, tell me what he said.” And I was like, “Dude, he spoke mostly English when you were standing there!”

Ginger: (laughing)

Summer: “You heard what he said!”

Ginger: And, uh, Lord John doesn’t believe that that’s all he said. And he says like, “I can force it out of you.” Okay then. Then we’re back to Boston and it is Brianna’s birthday. And here we see the dog again, so yes, it was the dog, the same dog as the beginning, so that’s the same time period that they were, that the intro was, was in. Sophie looks so young with her hair done like that. And it’s just, it’s a really quick scene. It was very, it was very fast though. There was hardly any, if any, dialogue. Because it goes right back to Ardsmuir. So it was a really quick, it was a really quick take like, to show us a time stamp. Like, this is, you know, Bree’s all, Bree’s almost grown.

Back to Ardsmuir. Murtagh is drinking a putrid concoction. Jamie tells him that Kerr was mad. He relays most of it to him and mentions the white witch. Murtagh gets this look on his face and asks, or implies, asks Jamie if he thinks it’s Claire. And then he says, “I wish we could know what became of her.” It’s so touching that Murtagh thinks of Claire. “I think of her every now and then, and the wee bairn that she was carrying.” Man. Can we not, can we not like Murtagh any more? I mean, come on. And Jamie’s like, “Okay, she’s gone, let’s not talk about her, please.” (laughing) “I’m trying to forget her. Mm, kind of.” Jamie says, “Try not to think of her, it’ll only bring you pain and suffering.” Then Jamie is called out to see Lord John again. This time, it’s for dinner. Together. So they dine. Jamie asks if the men may hunt for themselves, to set snares in the moor and as they cut peat, and then collect whatever they catch. And of course collect watercress. And Lord John is baffled, he’s like, “Why would anyone want to do that?” And Jamie’s like, “Yeah, it’ll stop you from getting scurvy.” Good ole Claire. It’s interesting how Jamie handles this question. “Where did you get that notion?” “From my wife.” “You’re married?” “She’s gone.” He doesn’t say he was married, past tense. And he doesn’t say, “She’s dead.”

[1:12:50] Summer: Yeah, well, this is the whole conversation is moot because Lord John Grey knows he was married. He knows who he is. This is just a game of cat and mouse right now.

Ginger: He knows who he is, but in the end, there’s this scene between them, that he didn’t know that was his wife. He just knew it was a woman that Jamie was threatening. They begin the meal. Jamie is taking his time, savoring the food, and smiles. He recognizes the sauce. And the music here, isn’t a melody we necessarily recognize, but the instruments harken back to season two and the French court. The aristocracy. So then, he’s back in the cell and he’s relaying the entire meal to his fellow prisoners.

Summer: This made me laugh so hard.

Ginger: (laughing)

Summer: When the prisoners were like, “Slow down, Mac Dubh,” because this is clearly prison porn.

Ginger: (laughing a lot) I didn’t expect that. Okay then.

Summer: He asks him to slow down to describe it a little more slowly.

Ginger: Do it again, do it again.

Summer: Tell me again about the sauce, what was the sauce? Bourgogne? What was that? Tell me about the sauce.

Ginger: (laughing) And then the music sweeps up and is slightly louder, and the scene changes. The prisoners are out to cut peat. And they’re checking their snares. So basically, so apparently Lord John has said yes, they may do this. And, uh, as they’re out there, so you know this is not the first time out there. They’ve been doing it, they have to get into a habit, form habits, get into a rhythm so that the, their guards are, know what they’re doing. Otherwise they would be not used to what they’re doing, so everyone’s used to their roles. Well, they waited long enough to have a plan. But I wonder how long it’s been since this whole Kerr thing. As some people are out being distracted or checking their snares and the Redcoats’ backs are turned, those who are behind the backs, I think it was two or three of them, along with Jamie, like, run toward like a ditch they’d buried or something? Or, isn’t it, didn’t Jamie like, run into the ditch and they covered it up with peat or?

[1:14:46] Summer: Yeah, it was, yeah there was like a hole, or some sort of a hole that he had, been previously dug. And he’d, and he threw himself into it and they covered him with peat like, this was orchestrated. This was planned.

Ginger: Oh, this was timed. This was timed, yeah. So, they did this for him, so that means, I guess, I, I don’t know that he told all the other prisoners like, where he was going or what he was doing, but just that he needed, maybe just that he was going to escape? I have no clue. But, whatever. They helped him escape. And the viewer isn’t given a lot here. One thing the dying man, Kerr, said, he mentioned Brian and Ellen. Now Brian is said to have come from a silkie. Well, book readers will know that this island, because they go straight to a shot of this island. This island is called the Silkie’s Isle in the book. And it’s a gorgeous shot. And as this, the camera comes back, we see that it’s not like, anyone we know of out there. It is, it’s the Redcoats that are looking for this escaped prisoner. He’s been sited out around there, and uh, they’re looking for him, to get back this very very valuable prisoner. The British caught up with him and he, it’s believed that they saw him swim out to the island. He’s been missing for three days. Now, this is not the book, the books, and so I’m not, I’m not so sure that this has any meaning, I, unless it’s taken straight from the book, which it may be, I don’t know. The story is taken from the book but um, they make a point to say that it was three days. And normally if it were something like Diana had done, if Diana said it was three days, and it involves Jamie, you’re usually, I would guess it was a decent chance that it’s a, a, the whole Christ figure, or some part, some, some facet of being his, his being a Christ figure, where he was, you know, crucified and then buried, died and risen three days later, that kind of thing. So, um, he, he disappeared. He literally went into a hole (chuckle), he disappeared for three days and then shows up again. So, but, it was, in the show, since it was in the show, I’m not holding out hope that they meant that, I just, that’s what my, my gut, my ear, my mind went to when I heard that, or saw that.

They go back to the prison and while Lord John is taking a pish, Jamie comes upon him. He’s returned to the prison willingly. And we find out that Jamie most definitely knows who this governor is. William Grey, second son of Vicomte Melton. Jamie tells Lord John that he didn’t say anything before because he was waiting for the proper occasion. Look at the face of Lord John here as Jamie is holding him. I wrote, “OMG, I don’t think he’s that scared.” I mean, he might, he, he is probably scared in a way, cause some, anything could happen. I think it’s, I think it’s a combination of fear and rapture. And I wrote, “Us too, Lord John. Us too.” (laughing) Lord Melton was an honorable man, and John had a promise to keep. Jamie’s allowing him to do so. He kneels, oh so gracefully, in profile. So what I mean here is when he said, um, Jamie’s like, “You have a promise to keep. You said,” and he’s like, “Oh, well my brother already did it.” “No, you said that, not only would you have to spare my life, or give me this debt back, but you also promised me that you’d kill me.” And so Jamie kneels down, takes his sword, takes his sword, throws it in the ground and then kneels before him and Lord John’s like, “Yeah, no.” He says, “I’m not a murderer of unarmed prisoners.” So they go for a walk. Uh, Jamie walking along the heather, it’s beautiful, just beautiful beautiful uh, scenery. He goes out with Lord John to the moor. He was truthful regarding what Kerr said. But some of what he said had meaning for him personally. And he shares this. Now his wife is gone, she was a healer, also known as a white lady, which, in Gaelic, the term also means witch. He had to go see, this mention of white lady, white witch, he had to go see. If there was any chance that what Duncan Kerr was talking about involved his wife in some way. But he said, it wasn’t. It didn’t. And she was really gone. He says gold was never sent by King Louis to the Stuarts. He has, however, as proof of his outing, and what he found, a sapphire, which he gives to Lord John.

[1:19:06] Summer: I was like, “The poop sapphire!” But, he didn’t have

Ginger: But he didn’t have it in his bum bum. Now Boston, 1966. Baby Bree has graduated. Now, it’s kind, it’s, this one’s a little bit emotional for me, I gotta say. So, at, she, she’s up, she gets her diploma, and as she turns, basically, I’m a, I’m a, I love Bear and, it’s not that I love Frank, fan of Frank, I don’t hate Frank, but, I think everyone has pretty much said that, even if they don’t love Frank in the books, they at least don’t mind him as much, um, because of Tobias, so, uhh. Um, Frank’s theme starts as soon as, oh my gosh, I’m gonna get, I’m gonna get verklempt again, Sum. As soon as Sophie, Bree, turns around and looks at her parents and smiles, uh, Frank’s theme starts. And I, I wrote, “I can’t take it.” And Frank says, “That’s my girl!” Bree sits down and the music gets louder. It’s the loudest and most beautiful we’ve, or at least I’ve, ever heard Frank’s theme. I mean it is, it’s like roaring.

And then we’re shuttled back to Ardsmuir. Murtagh is ill and a doctor has been brought to treat him. So once again, Lord John has kept his word, has done what he can. Lord John and Jamie continue to meet and have meals together, and they play chess, and this is straight from the book, which, I know just gives us a, gives us a tickle. It seems Jamie and Lord John have settled into this comfortable routine. They are getting to know each other a little bit more and uh, they start to open up a little bit. John says he lost a “particular friend” at Culloden. The reason he joined the army, even. He said, “He inspired me.” In the book we’re given a name. And that name is Hector. I do not believe we have a name in the show. But, what Lord John says is that he lost a friend at, this friend at Culloden and he came upon him or was taken to him or found him when he was dying, but his brother didn’t allow him to say goodbye when he saw him dying. Hal was embarrassed that his brother was grieving a man he was in love with. And he thought this was something that Hal would get over, or get through. Jamie says, “I think perhaps the greatest burden lies in caring for those we cannot help, not in having no one for whom to care.” He tells her his wife’s name was Claire. This is the first time he’s said it, that we’ve heard, to him. Lord John didn’t know that it was his wife’s life that he’d saved. So much of this is from the book, it’s, it’s, it’s a dream just to have so much of this. And then, John makes his move. Hand on hand, rubbing of a thumb. Jamie’s response is quiet. “Take your hand off me, or I will kill you.”

And now we’re in Boston! (laughs) Talk about like, the back and forth, the back and forth scenes. Frank goes to Claire, who has had a tough day. He wants to take Brianna to England. And we find out he means permanently. He was offered a position at Cambridge and Claire thinks that, at first, it’s about all of them moving and she’s like, “Well, what about the hospital? I can’t leave my position.” And he’s like, “Uh, no Claire, that’s not what I mean. I want a divorce.” Brianna is eighteen and he figures she’s old enough and she has her own life. And he says, and this is the very harsh, between med school and the hospital, Claire’s barely been home. He says he plans to get married to Candy/Sandy as soon as he’s free, and to his credit, he’s a cool cat. He’s not angry, he’s not blaming, he’s just done. She says, “All this time, you’ve been waiting. You’ve just been waiting for that clock to run out.” She says she will not let him take Brianna. He wants to live the rest of his life, however, with a wife who truly loves him. And that, I mean, I understand that, and I don’t, I don’t begrudge him that, that, it has to be awful to live in a situation where you’re not with someone who loves you. He says to Claire, “You couldn’t look at Brianna without seeing him, could you? Without that constant reminder, mightn’t you have forgotten him, with time?” Poor Claire is forced to dredge back the stones, when she left Jamie behind. Her reply, “That amount of time doesn’t exist.” This whole scene was hard to watch, Summer. What did you think?

Summer: Um, it just brought back a lot of the feelings I had when I was reading the book, about my distaste of Frank just coming in and saying, “I’m gonna take our daughter and I’m leaving. And I want a divorce.” And I’m like, “You can’t just take my kid.” I’m like, “You’re only her ‘father,’ because I let you be.” And I mean, I know that in the, like the ‘60s they weren’t doing DNA testing at that point, but, if they were, I’d have been like, “Okay, then this ends now. And I’m ending it for everyone. I’m gonna call Maury.”

[1:23:53] Ginger: As he exits the house, he takes the car keys, and Frank’s theme plays as he exits. Shortly thereafter the phone rings. It’s the hospital, and Claire is needed.

And we go to Ardsmuir again. The men are lined up outside in the snow. When I first saw this I thought this was when the beating, the, I thought this was when the um, lashing was going to be, honestly. Cause this is what I thought of. But, it’s not. Jamie is taken away by one of Lord John’s men. So all the prisoners are lined up. But Jamie is the only one taken away from the group. And this man of Lord John’s tells him that the prison is closing and the prisoners are being removed to the Colonies. But Jamie is to be among them. He’s tied up behind Lord John’s horse and led away. Now, as happy as we were to see that Murtagh had been saved, even though he was ill, he is in line with the other prisoners, set to be shipped to the Colonies. When you saw that, Summer, what did you?

Summer: Uh, I thought, “Yay! Murtagh on the Ridge!”

Ginger: Oh, oh, so you didn’t say, “Oh no, they’re being,” I mean, obviously I didn’t expect Murtagh to go to Helwater. No. But I, I don’t know what I thought. I mean, I guess, if you’re gonna save Murtagh, he’s gotta go to prison, otherwise he’s dead, cause he’s not gonna be surviving in a cave like Jamie. Then, at some point, you know, Ardsmuir does not last forever. So, transferred to another prison or he’s gonna be

Summer: They’re all being sent to the Colonies.

Ginger: Yeah.

Summer: So, if he makes it to the Colonies and he’s survived, he’s a canny wee, wee, uh, he’s not wee at all. He’s a smart man. He’s, he’s got a, he’s got skills. I think he’ll survive in the Americas long enough.

Ginger: So Lord John, or I should say, he’s not, Lord John’s on a horse, so he’s fine. Jamie walks and walks and walks. They walk to, literally, they walk to England.

Summer: Mmm.

Ginger: Three more days. Jamie is not convinced that indentured servitude is not slavery. Lord John tries to explain, “Look, they’ll be able to be free once they’ve worked it off.” He’s trying to, I mean, you also gotta remember he’s a member of the aristocracy and he had a very easy life, comparatively. Lord John says that the King hasn’t seen fit to approve to commute Jamie’s sentence, and that’s why he’s not being shipped to the Colonies. But he’s done the best he can. He’s managed to get him a spot at Helwater serving Lord Dunsany. Lord John, he says, will visit once a quarter, to make sure that things are going well. And he advises Jamie not to use his own name. He can’t hide the fact that he’s Scottish, but he said not to advertise the fact that he’s a Jacobite. So Lord John says he regrets putting the moves on him, basically. He says, “It was foolish of me.” And he says that, Lord John says that Jamie saved his life once and now he’s saving his. And he hopes that he’ll use it. The reason? Because Lord Melton discharged the debt for the sake of the family name. But Lord John is discharging it for the sake of his own.

[1:26:52] Summer: Now I think it’s important for me to point out that I did not at this point in this story love Lord John Grey. In the books. But um, show Lord John Grey is bae.

Ginger: He’s a mensch. He’s like Murtagh.

Summer: He’s bae! He’s bae. He is not Murtagh, he’s not a mensch. He is bae. Before anyone else. Like when you say someone is bae, they’re your bae. They are your “before anyone else” person.

Ginger: So he’s your bae before Jamie?

Summer: No. I’m just saying. I’m, this, this version of Lord John Grey is bae. I didn’t like, book Lord John Grey didn’t, didn’t have me tied in this, this quickly, but, show John Grey. Bae.

Ginger: And we end in Boston. Claire, it’s still the same evening. Claire has finished her surgery. Joe comes in looking for her. He says, “It’s Frank. There’s been a car accident.” She runs down the corridor, and this scene is just awful. The music is rushing as she runs and then just as she approaches the door to the morgue, or whichever room this is, this one high note sustained. I can’t even take this music, Bear. Oh my gosh, this scene. It is so quiet. And of course, of course, it’s Frank’s theme. She kisses him and, I think on his chest or near his neck, and says, “If you’re close enough to hear me, I did love you. Very much. You were my first love.” She kisses him again and then she leaves. This is her debt, paid. She’s no longer obligated to anyone.

Summer: That, you know, for, for a car accident that killed him, he’s remarkably unscathed.

Ginger: I must say, I’m so happy, well, I’m happy there’s no blood, but, yeah, there was no blood.

Summer: Not even blood, but I mean, like, I, I understand that there are other things that can kill you that have nothing to do with your face, but you would expect that a car accident, there would be something wrong with your face. Like, a cut or something, even if they cleaned the blood off. But I mean, if there’s a car accident, there’s gas flying, glass, gas, hehe. Glass flying around and, all kinds of things that, I just feel like his body would have been more marred.

Ginger: And that’s the final note of the episode. The outro is all Frank’s theme. I need this soundtrack ASAP, which I mean, I know means not before 2018. (laughing)

Summer: (chuckles) Get comfortable.

Ginger: I know, huh? So that was a difficult episode. We went from Jamie in jail to being to, to hearing something he thought might have to do with Claire, but which didn’t, but may or may not come into play later on. And the trip to seal’s island, which they really didn’t show us, which, okay I get, but

Summer: I think we’re gonna get it later. I think we’re gonna see it later, and the reason I say that is because in all the previews they showed, um, before the season started, there was that one shot of him in a, in an area surrounded by tall stony things and screaming, “Claire!” So I feel like we’re gonna get it as a flashback at some point, but, no it was not in that episode.

Ginger: Oh, man, I can’t wait, I can’t wait! So, that was 303. Oh my goodness. We cannot wait to hear from you guys. As you know there are many ways to leave us feedback for 303. We wanna hear from you. And the easiest ways: call our listener line at 916-587-0763 and don’t forget, join our exclusive Facebook community. Go to outlanderpod.com/group to continue the conversation of all things Outlander. And that’s also where you can join our live aftershow every Sunday after the new episode premieres. And if you have an itchin, a Scottish itching, find out more about our upcoming trip to Scotland. Go to podabroad.com. (she spells it)

Summer: Join us next week when we discuss episode 304 entitled “Of Lost Things.”

Ginger: So thank you, as always, so much for listening. We look forward to our next episode.

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Ginger: Connect with us. Visit our website at outlanderpod.com. Find us on Facebook: facebook.com/outlanderpod. We’d love for you to join our Facebook community at outlanderpod.com/group. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram : @outlanderpod Transcribed 9/29/17 by Shelsy Joseph